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  #1  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:50 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Howell varying idle when warm and engine dies after hitting it hard

I have a AMC 401 with a 260 cam, Mallory ignition and Howell TBI. I had the same TBI on a AMC 360 and it showed much the same symptoms.

The engine starts right up when cold and idles fine. When driving it is fine with the exception that it sometimes dies, without stuttering, after I hit it hard. It fires right up after it without problems.

When the engine has warmed up the idle is fluctuating all over the place, presently varying between 1250-1350 RPM's (in Park) but sometimes goes much lower and the engine dies. I could not leave the engine running for long without it dying on me.

I have changed the fuel filter (I have two, one before the fuel pump and one after) and checked the sock in the tank and cleaned the IAC.

Do you have any advise on what might be wrong'

Many thanks,
Palli
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  #2  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:57 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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bad MAP sensor?
vacuum leak

Those are the first 2 things I'd check.
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  #3  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:22 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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If you're using Howell's system designed for a 360 on a 401, you will have problems with it leaning out.

But you said it did the same thing on a 360. Hmmm....

Do you have datalogging ability?
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  #4  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:34 PM
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autogatto autogatto is offline
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For sure as you've been already told if you're using the same eprom calibration that you had on the 360 this setup on the 401 will not work. 304 and 360 share the same eprom calibration but the one for the 401 is different. And I would think that you would probably have injectors not big enough. (but I'll leave this to be confirmed or not to people that are more expert than me).

I had really similar symptoms to the ones you are experiencing over 10 years ago and it drove me so crazy that I came really close to taking the fuel injection out and put back my carb. But my case was a little different since I had built the kit by myself with really little to no knowledge. In my case the whole problem was caused by a wrong O2 sensor. Replaced the little [rule-violating language removed - consider yourself warned] my jeep has run like a champ ever since.
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  #5  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:35 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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My Howell TBI on the stock 360 in the waggy also has a similar problem with the idle. When warm, it fluctuates. Otherwise runs perfects and has never died.

I kinda attribute this behavior is due to lack of setting up the initial system setup procedures on Bill's site here:

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...737#post345737

If I were you I would start with this.
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  #6  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:58 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
Do you have datalogging ability?

x10!!!!

It's very easy to find the problem with the appropriate graph in front of you. These aren't carbs; things are much easier to troubleshoot here.
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  #7  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:53 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Thanks for the advice. I do have data logging ability but could not upload the log when Itried including it in my original email (got an error stating that theattachment exceeded the limit – even though it was zipped and only 19kb insize). Is it possible that the administrators of this forum have to allow me toinclude attachments?

I failed tomention that the EPROM is a new one received from Howell (Troy) who made itspecifically for this engine. He did say that the injectors where “big enough”(if such a thing exists!”) for this application and he did see from the log that the engine is at, or close to, “14,7 something” that meant it was receivingwhat it needed – if I understood him right.

Troy atHowell had recommended that I would drive the Wagoneer like this for few days,but I find it unlikely that it will heal itself – hence my post here.
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2012, 05:35 AM
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Having the same problem with my Howell, idles erratically, when warm or cold, it is rich at idle 108BML. It leans out when I stomp on it from a stop light, lean berween 3-4000RMP. I have sent Troy several data logs, I am on chip number 12. 360 with 9-1 comp ratio, porteds heads, stock pistons,edelbrock performer intake,shorty headders,"3"exhaust, cold air intake, DUI ignition. We have been tuning for a year, he is sticking with it though
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  #9  
Old 04-12-2012, 06:41 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I do feel that the break pedal is a bit sluggish so perhaps that would indicate a vacuum leak?

If that is the case, can something be assumed in regards to the source of the vacuum leak if the engine runs OK when cold and the breaks are sluggish ?

Tks,
Palli
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  #10  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:45 AM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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If the brake pedal is hard, that would indicate problems with the vacuum booster. If the pedal is spongy, that indicates problems with the hydraulic system which is separate from the vacuum booster.
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  #11  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:36 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I followed the procedure of setting the IAC as per the procedure on binderplanet.com posted by Blake. The idle RPM was set at about 800 RPM but as the engine idle speed was oscillating, even with the IAC disconnected, it was impossible to set the RPM’s lower.

When I started the engine the day after, it was hard to get it going as it died for the first starts and when pressing the gas pedal it would choke. I got it running after few attempts but I still have the problem of the engine dying while driving – particularly immediately after starting driving after briefstop (e.g. stopping on a red light).

The engine idled high while in Drive, even after warming up, but when I put it in Park it started lowering the RPM and the RPM's started oscillating.

I have removed one fuel filter so now there is only one remaining (between the tankand the pump) as per recommendation from Troy at Howell.

So currently I have all the same problems but now with lower RPM’s after the IAC calibration procedure.

I tried spraying Carb/TBI cleaner on all hoses and the base of the TBI without any change in RPM.

NB! I have now been able to upload the attachment showing a log I did this morning (tks to moderators).

Thanks,
Palli

Any further ideas on what the problem could be?
Attached Files
File Type: zip 20120416_094105_LOG.zip (13.3 KB, 26 views)
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  #12  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:02 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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A couple suggestions.

1. Disconnect all vacuum connections and cap them except for the map sensor.
2. You have a map error in your log so you need to disconnect the batt or the ECM to clear the fault prior to the next log.
3. Your data cable is not setup properly. You are in 10K aldl mode. That means there is a resistor in the data stream making the ecm go to aldl mode.
You should only have the gnd to pin A and the data to pin E. Nothing else. No jumper to B and no resistor.
If you made the cable then you may not have followed the correct diagram like i have on the BP.
4. You are max rich at 108. So either the tune is pig rich or you have a vacuum or exhaust leak driving it rich. (see #1)
5. You should also save the BLM table along with the data log when done logging.

Edit: make sure the map is connected to the map port on the back of the TBI.

You also did not complete the initial setup procedures. The TPS is at 3.6%.
Attached Files
File Type: zip 20120416_094105_LOG (2).zip (34.8 KB, 18 views)
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
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Last edited by Bill USN-1 : 04-16-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:20 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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With the cable in "10K" mode, the IAC usually would stay wide open (145) on mine. I noticed that your IAC actually would go as low as 108 or so, but where your idle was rolling from 900 to 1,400 rpm, the IAC was wide open at 145.

See what happens without the cable in 10K mode. If you're not sure, simply unplug the ALDL cable and see if the idle still rolls.
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  #14  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:49 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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ALDL mode sets the idle to a fixed rpm (1000 normally) as set in the bin.
It also adds timing (8*) as set in the bin.
I don't remember if it's for all aldl modes but it's easy to verify. Just use a jumper and then a 10k resistor.
There was also a 4.7k mode.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:26 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
ALDL mode sets the idle to a fixed rpm (1000 normally) as set in the bin.

I have experienced this, too.
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  #16  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:24 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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OK, I have checked few things now.

1) I got the TPS aligned to .57v by enlarging the screw holes on the TPS

2) I verified that the MAP sensor is connected to the back of the TBI

3) I sprayed carb/TBI cleaner once again on all vacuum lines looking for leaks, without results

4) I made a log without the jumper in the cable ( I have the USB cable from ALDLcable.com) but am unable to upload the new log as I get an error stating the file size is too big (even though it is not). I have sent the administrators a message so hopefully that will be resolved soon.

The problem still exists that the engine RPM oscillates and that it dies after heavy footed run.

I did not install the Howell system myself and when I got the "new" engine few weeks ago the guy who installed the engine made a note that he was not familiar with any TBI system.

I now traced all the vacuum lines and am wondering if the system is correctly hooked up? I do not have any smog equipment in the Wagoneer and have Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold.
I did a drawing but am unable to upload the drawing. I tried writing up how they are connected but felt that noone could understand the text properly.

All four connectors on the Charcoal Canister are connected to something which is not right according to the AMC 258 drawings I have seen.

I have found both for the 258 and for the smog equipped 360/401 but not for the non-smog 360/401. Is there available a drawing showing the exact connections for the vacuum lines for a non smog (no air pump, no nothing) AMC 401 ?

Many thanks for your continued support,

Palli
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  #17  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:10 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Did you do this? If so none of the emission hoses should be connected.
Quote:
1. Disconnect all vacuum connections and cap them except for the map sensor.


To attach the file you first need to send it to a compressed file and then attach the compressed file.
just go to the file in explorer and right click, then select send to compressed file.
Did you make a log and save the BLM table?
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  #18  
Old 04-19-2012, 03:44 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Now there might be some progress. I tried unplugging and capping as many vacuum lines as I could, but I soon ran out of ways to plug them so I left some disconnected and started disconnecting the vacuum lines one by one with the engine warm and running (when the idle oscillates).

Nothing changed until I disconnected the vacuum hose connected to the intake manifold furthest to the left of the Wagoneer (driver’s side). Then the engine started shaking but the oscillation stopped. I also noticed that the smell from the exhaust changed immediately (to the better).

This hose is connected to the 5 port thing that is connected to the cooling water in the intake manifold (what is that thing called?) There it is also connected to the vacuum bowl hanging in the middle on the firewall.

Looking at the “vacuum- schematics”diagram on the Howell website that port on the 5 port thingy is labeled “Filter to atmosphere”. Is that perhaps wrongly connected on my 401 ?

It would be really helpful if someone had a drawing showing "what is connected to what" on a non-Emissions AMC V8.

As for the Log, BLM map and a drawing of how vacuum is currently connected on my engine then I am still unable to upload, in spite of having everything as an individual zip file. I always get an error message stating that the file is too large (even though it is not).

I did not dare driving with the hose disconnected as the engine was shaking - but could this be a clue to what is wrong?

Thanks for your help,
Palli
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  #19  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:23 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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The 5 port CTO is an emissions related device and no vacuum needs to be routed to it @ all.

Take it out of the loop.

Vacuum canister on the firewall is needed for heater/transfer case it gets manifold vacuum.

Vacuum requirements for non emissions are pretty much the same as any other engine;
Power brake booster, distributor, PCV.
My opinion is manifold vacuum for all of them. Some will argue on the distributor, but ported vacuum is an emissions thing.

Fuel vapor charcoal can can be omitted as well, but that's for you to decide.
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  #20  
Old 04-19-2012, 06:36 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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by disconnecting a hose and letting air suck in you are just adding more air for the fuel.
So no it really doesn't help to determine the problem.

Send me the data logs to my email.
bill@hamiltonfuelinjection.com

Quote:
Some will argue on the distributor, but ported vacuum is an emissions thing.

Actually it's the opposite.
By going manifold vac at idle it raised the timing and helped pass the idle emissions.
At part throttle they even out and at WOT there is no manifold vacuum.
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