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Old 09-19-2011, 02:17 PM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Dead space in the body

It was hard to come up with a title and get it accurate. As you may know, there are plenty of open areas (dead space) in the body.

One spot is the space between the roof and the inside body panels. There is about a 2-3" gap all the way around the inside top.

The other spot is the between the inside rear panels and the outside body.

There is a 1" or so gap between the inside fenderwell and body panel.

There is even dead space between he inside window panels and the outside body.

You might can see what I am talking about in this pic.



Now, I plan on using sound deadening stuff ( not sure of the exact product yet) inside the doors, on the roof and inside the side body panels.

However, has anyone used or tried, filling the smaller gaps like fenderwells and roof gap with that spray foam? Would there be a reason it wouldn't work? Or, if not foam, couldn't you just stuff that area with a batting material?

It just seems that is alot of hollow space that would be best to fill up with something. Any thoughts or discussion?
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2011, 02:46 PM
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austinaubinoe austinaubinoe is offline
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spray foam WILL hold moisture. Maybe try coating the hidden surfaces with something like Raptor Liner?
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  #3  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:01 PM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinaubinoe
spray foam WILL hold moisture. Maybe try coating the hidden surfaces with something like Raptor Liner?

I was thinking along the lines of The Great Stuff, which is a closed cell spray foam. It says it does not hold water and is water proof.
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  #4  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Eric S. Eric S. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ5
I was thinking along the lines of The Great Stuff, which is a closed cell spray foam. It says it does not hold water and is water proof.
While I admire the general cheapness of your intentions, I would say steer clear of that stuff. No matter what, it looks like nothing but a sponge when you cut a cross-section. No matter what, the interior of your jeep is a humid place once you roll up the windows. If you're going this far to strip the body and do a good job, pay the extra few bucks and hit it with something that's designed with automotive applications in mind.You don't want to later find out that it sucks for that application and then have to tear the body down again and scrape all that stuff out. If you really want to deaden sound, i would suggest shooting the inside of those areas with something like lizard skin.
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  #5  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:27 PM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric S.
While I admire the general cheapness of your intentions, I would say steer clear of that stuff. No matter what, it looks like nothing but a sponge when you cut a cross-section. No matter what, the interior of your jeep is a humid place once you roll up the windows. If you're going this far to strip the body and do a good job, pay the extra few bucks and hit it with something that's designed with automotive applications in mind.You don't want to later find out that it sucks for that application and then have to tear the body down again and scrape all that stuff out. If you really want to deaden sound, i would suggest shooting the inside of those areas with something like lizard skin.

You have a good point but a wrong assertion. I am not looking to fill the dead area's with a cheap sound deadener. I plan on using an appropriate sound deadening product where applicable. That being said, there are plenty of dead open spaces in the body and if those spaces were filled it would make for a more quiet, rattle/squeek free, temperature controlled environment. I mean, have you looked at all the dead open spaces on the body of these? I am not sure moisture is an issue with this product and there is plenty of information on boat sites where this product is used below deck with good results.

Lizard skin or a bed liner like material are good ideas. I will use a good product for protection of these areas and those are good products. Another consideration would be the speakers in the body panels. I would get a much performance if the hollow open spaces were filled, wouldn't I?
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Last edited by CJ5 : 09-19-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:01 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Most household spray in foam will degrade over time with heat. THEN it lets in and holds water. I'd stay away from it. These trucks will never be as quiet as a newer "modern" car.
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  #7  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:02 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Hmm

The voids could work to your advantage. I suggest you google to get completley objective information. Yes that includes my info too. As for myself & it was quite contested I used Dynamat over the entire exterior. It worked perfectly. It's expensive but visit their site they say you can do it. OH there's a ton of other sites with similar products but the answers are the same. The hollow areas if dealt with properly can improve your sound system & thermal qualities. I do agree with CJ5 if you cut corners don't be mad with the circle you build. I believe Zeibart works good for this also. Dynamat is proven to be good stuff. Mine is quiet & My A/C is working better than it ever has. Heater too. a goodsealer like por 15 should resist well enough. Anything you put on metal has a retainge probability. I ran mine verticle to deal with that. This is just the way I did it. Yes it is more expenive. It worked.

The bad taste of a crappy job last long after the sweet price.

Google is your friend. What I discovered contradicted what I heard. There's tons of prfessional info on this.
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  #8  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:02 PM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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http://3mcollision.com/3m-flexible-foam-08463.html

I did some more research and found an OEM product to do just what I needed. It will work on the roof section and I think I can make it work in the upper body panels. The lower, larger size lower panels will need something different.
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  #9  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:20 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ5
http://3mcollision.com/3m-flexible-foam-08463.html

I did some more research and found an OEM product to do just what I needed. It will work on the roof section and I think I can make it work in the upper body panels. The lower, larger size lower panels will need something different.

why not do it with one good product? you know 3m isn't cheap.
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If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #10  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:43 PM
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Use something non-flammable if you value your life after an accident, or want to weld near it again in the future
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  #11  
Old 09-19-2011, 05:33 PM
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If you go with foam, use a 2 part marine product. The stuff is incredibly strong and is made to go below deck. Water and humidity are never an issue. Years ago when I worked on marine diesels it was in almost every boat we worked on. You can't get much more abusive or neglected as some the the shrimp boats that I've seen.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...oductId=111736
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2011, 08:58 PM
pacman pacman is offline
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Couple of reference links for you.
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715683

The second link is an "adventure van" build thread, but the owner goes into pretty good detail on sound deadening techniques for the big boomy van body.
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2011, 07:59 AM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Those are some good links...I will continue to do some research.

Yes, 3M is expensive. That product I posted is used for exactly what I want to do but with the dead space I have it may be cost prohibitive.

No, these jeeps will never be as quiet as a modern car but then again modern cars don't have 400sq ft of dead space between body panels either.

I am doing a complete restore and I am also trying to make sure that the end result is better that the factory result. If you spend time going over these jeeps looking at the small details, it is quite obvious they were thrown together. There is sub-standard work and fitment everywhere. Mine has more putty between joints that anything I have ever seen. These jeeps can be improved upon, and that is what I am trying to achieve.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:26 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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X2

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ5
Those are some good links...I will continue to do some research.

Yes, 3M is expensive. That product I posted is used for exactly what I want to do but with the dead space I have it may be cost prohibitive.

No, these jeeps will never be as quiet as a modern car but then again modern cars don't have 400sq ft of dead space between body panels either.

I am doing a complete restore and I am also trying to make sure that the end result is better that the factory result. If you spend time going over these jeeps looking at the small details, it is quite obvious they were thrown together. There is sub-standard work and fitment everywhere. Mine has more putty between joints that anything I have ever seen. These jeeps can be improved upon, and that is what I am trying to achieve.
Totally agree. What ever works for you is the deal. Good luck with your build!!

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Holley 4180
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2011, 08:53 AM
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I have noticed in the later model FSJ's they used and expanding foam sealant up inside the cowl area beneath the windshield and down to the fresh air vents. the skin or top layer is usually gone revealing the open cells and holds quite a bit of moisture. Also after using these spray foam products for more than ten years commercially. I recommend that the surface you apply them to be as like new, because the product will amplify the oxidation process, rust (like that is possible on an FSJ) . A commercial spray on rubberized product would work good but then there is the weight factor with these products when being used for sound proofing. Whatever you choose to use, make sure the surface that it is applied to is clean and rust free, cause rust never sleeps.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:05 AM
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A lot of new cars use styrofoam panels to fill in these voids. They are of course molded to specific shapes, but that is necessarily an issue. One could fill the side voids with 2" blueboard panels, and cover the panels with duct tape or shipping wrap to prevent the typical styrofoam squeaks. Probably wouldn't take much effort to suspend it so that any moisture than found its way between the panels and the metal of truck could evaporate and prevent quick rotting of the truck.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:05 AM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtojeeps
I have noticed in the later model FSJ's they used and expanding foam sealant up inside the cowl area beneath the windshield and down to the fresh air vents. the skin or top layer is usually gone revealing the open cells and holds quite a bit of moisture. Also after using these spray foam products for more than ten years commercially. I recommend that the surface you apply them to be as like new, because the product will amplify the oxidation process, rust (like that is possible on an FSJ) . A commercial spray on rubberized product would work good but then there is the weight factor with these products when being used for sound proofing. Whatever you choose to use, make sure the surface that it is applied to is clean and rust free, cause rust never sleeps.

Good point. My intention is to cover all area's with a rust encapsulator before I do anything.

I don't intend to fill wheelwell areas with a foam or anything like that. Those area's are to big. My main focus is the area between the roof and side panels, the door pillars and the upper area around the rear window.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:32 AM
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I don't know where you'd get go info regarding foam filler but foam can be very annoying stuff. Some of the spray stuff they used to use in metal buildings insulation used to gas off pretty bad and can be a health risk. On the roof I'd think you'd want a closed cell foam so it doesn't absorb moisture. A lot of our steel boats had the inside of the hull spay foamed. All boats sweat inside from the in/out temp difference just like your house windows do when it's cold out. When we needed to weld something to the hull or remove a chunk of foam for USCG orABS inspection. The steel behind the foam was always horribly rusted. Not fuzzy surface rust but heavy scaly rust. Much better to leave the painted steel exposed to air movement. Some foam also shrinks considerably. Had a bud in Spokane work for Thermoguard. One of those outfits that insulate older homes by drilling holes in the outer wall and pump liquid foam between the studs. Thermoguard office had a block of the foam on the counter for customers to see. Part of Tim's job was to replace that foam block monthly cause it'd shrink so bad. If you're looking to get rid of squeaks and rattles...fix what's loose and worn.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ5
Good point. My intention is to cover all area's with a rust encapsulator before I do anything.

I don't intend to fill wheelwell areas with a foam or anything like that. Those area's are to big. My main focus is the area between the roof and side panels, the door pillars and the upper area around the rear window.

Automakers have been doing it for years.
Helped with collision crash energy management, and meeting stricter safety standards.
Stiffens things up, and provides sound deadening.

Use a professional automotive product from 3M, SEM, or whomever.
Won't be cheap, but anything less is probably a waste of time/money.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:10 AM
CJ5 CJ5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
Automakers have been doing it for years.
Helped with collision crash energy management, and meeting stricter safety standards.
Stiffens things up, and provides sound deadening.

Use a professional automotive product from 3M, SEM, or whomever.
Won't be cheap, but anything less is probably a waste of time/money.

I agree. The absolute best product to use will the 3m product I listed. I may buy one and see how it does but for $60 for 200ml, I probably need an alternative.
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