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Old 12-12-2019, 05:09 PM
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JSSmall JSSmall is offline
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'65 Wagoneer - best replacement motor?

I'm not giving up on the old AMC 327 Vigilante just yet. But in terms of bolting up to the existing transmission, what's my best choice for a new motor?

What motors of similar HP/torque bolt up to the Borg Warner M-10?
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Old 12-12-2019, 05:42 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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Gonna be tough unless you do a complete motor w/trans swap. The AMC 327 has it's own odd/unique bolt pattern. Not the same as the conventional AMC 258/360/401 Borg Warner M-10 trans??? wass dat? If you mean BW T-10? It'll bolt up fine to a 327 Chev pattern motor. Ran that in a 63 Vette till I got tired of rebuilding the thin geared, weak synros T-10 a couple times and swapped in the Muncie rock crusher. The AMC327 is a good tough motor, ok granted a bit odd and not the fastest small block but if built right($$$) can be pretty quick and very reliable but hasn't been parts supported for many decades. You might find a suitable off brand swap candidate on some of the AMC Rambler forums.
Good luck, I'd rebuild the one ya got.
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Old 12-12-2019, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Borg Warner M-10 trans??? wass dat?


The Borg Warner M-10 was an automatic trans.
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Old 12-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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Yes, the Borg-Warner automatic was discontinued when the 230cid OHC six was also discontinued. The 327 Jeeps got the GM TH400, which is a durable and strong transmission, with plenty of modern parts support.

The AMC 327 has a unique bell housing pattern that is unlike any other engine. The only engines that will bolt-in are the 250 and 287 cid versions of the gen-1 AMC V8, used in AMC passenger cars.

Jeep used the "nailhead" aka "universal" TH400 with a ring adapter specifically for the AMC gen-1 V8. Jeep used these ring adapters with other engines (Buick 225 & 350, gen-2 AMC V8s) until about 1974, so you could keep the transmission and change to a different adapter and an engine compatible with that adapter. Or you could swap out for a Chevy TH400 case and run a Chevy engine. Lots of possibilities, but none of them are really bolt-up solutions.
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Old 12-13-2019, 02:12 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankyolman
The Borg Warner M-10 was an automatic trans.
Oh. I knew the previous 230 OHC motor's auto trans option was a BW AT but never heard it called an M-10. Kaiser referred to it as the Borg Warner AS-8F. Also never heard of one behind an AMC 327. As Tim mentioned the 327 used the Buick nailhead pattern TH400 with an adapter ring.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:48 AM
rocklaurence rocklaurence is offline
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If you want to keep it as cheap as possible, bolt in a SBC/TH400 combination. You can have the rear TH400 parts installed into the SBC TH400 during the trans rebuild. Another option would be to buy a $1000 1980+ Wagoneer and swap the drive train/axles into the old one. The last Gen' of Wagoneers used the AMC 360/TF727/NP229/Dana axles.
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:42 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
...Or you could swap out for a Chevy TH400 case and run a Chevy engine. Lots of possibilities, but none of them are really bolt-up solutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklaurence
If you want to keep it as cheap as possible, bolt in a SBC/TH400 combination.
You would be hard pressed to find a better solution than that. You can probably find a sweet running late model SBC in a wrecking yard for pennies. TH400's are super easy to find, too. It would be really close to bolt in. You could probably do it in a weekend.

Another option would be to find a Buick, Olds, Pontiac, or Caddy motor and bolt that in. You could remove the adapter ring from the trans and they should mate up. But this swap is not very common here so you may have trouble fitting exhaust or finding motor mounts, etc.
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Old 12-27-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
...
Another option would be to find a Buick, Olds, Pontiac, or Caddy motor and bolt that in. You could remove the adapter ring from the trans and they should mate up. But this swap is not very common here so you may have trouble fitting exhaust or finding motor mounts, etc.
?? Are you suggesting these engines will bolt up to the nailhead/universal case? They will not. You could possibly bolt up to a Buick nailhead engine (old old old) but not the more modern Buick-Olds-Pontiac-Cadillac (BOP) patterned engines. The nailhead case is shorter than all others, and provides room for the ring adapter. Different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V8_engine#Buick_%22Nailhead_V8%22_(first_gen eration) The nailhead V8 block sticks out to meet the shorter nailhead/universal TH400. Nothing else will work with that transmission, without the engine-specific adapter ring.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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Last edited by tgreese : 12-27-2019 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 12-27-2019, 04:04 PM
gopher_6_9 gopher_6_9 is offline
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Hellcat swap for the win....
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:08 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
?? Are you suggesting these engines will bolt up to the nailhead/universal case? They will not. You could possibly bolt up to a Buick nailhead engine (old old old) but not the more modern Buick-Olds-Pontiac-Cadillac (BOP) patterned engines. The nailhead case is shorter than all others, and provides room for the ring adapter. Different.
I was suggesting that but it sounds like I am wrong. I thought the TH400 in the early Wags had the BOPC bolt pattern and a ring that converted to AMC. I thought you could remove that ring and have a BOPC pattern.

I am glad you corrected me though!
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:13 AM
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Yes, BOP and nailhead both go with Buick engines, but they are different. Jeep used the nailhead transmission with the 350 (a BOP pattern engine) using a ring adapter, just like they did with the 327. The nailhead TH400 case is a couple of inches shorter than other TH400 cases, leaving room for the adapter.

There exists a TH400 with a BOP case from GM, used in passenger cars. This case needs no adapter when used with the 225 or 350 Buick engines, but Jeep never used it. Instead they went with the nailhead case with an engine-specific adapter for all Jeep applications until they changed to a 1-piece case for the gen 3 AMCs (360 etc.) in ca 1974. More Jeep-specific oddness.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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Old 12-28-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklaurence
If you want to keep it as cheap as possible, bolt in a SBC/TH400 combination. You can have the rear TH400 parts installed into the SBC TH400 during the trans rebuild. Another option would be to buy a $1000 1980+ Wagoneer and swap the drive train/axles into the old one. The last Gen' of Wagoneers used the AMC 360/TF727/NP229/Dana axles.



This, but only no trans parts swapping involved. SBC or BBC, you decide, and use a pre 88 700r4 and T-case. No adapters, no parts swap, and there is probably a billion of them out there.

Your older Wag probably has better gears for the OD especially if you don't go big on tires.

Pre 88 Chevy has got passenger side drop t-case. No axle swap needed.
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:18 PM
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Crankyolman Crankyolman is offline
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People love to act like engine swaps are some sort of huge deal that require a mixture of skill, magic and voodoo that can only be performed by witch doctors on the 8th full moon of the year after sacrificing a goat but really they aren't all that complicated.


Now I know nothing about the Borg-Warner automatic transmissions but I know they were used on a lot of cars and trucks in the early 60s. For all I know they might have a replaceable bell housing that would make them easily adaptable to other engines. Hell, maybe Kaiser actually used a few on the 327s in '65 at the transition or maybe someone swapped one in. Who knows, a lot of weird things go on in a 55 year old trucks history.

Now maybe I'm wrong here but if the truck actually has a TH400 and not an M-10 then it has a factory adapter plate. That adapter plate is easy enough to change out for one that Jeep made that will either fit a BOP or AMC 304/360/401. The advantage of this is if you use a factory BOP adapter you can use pretty much any Buick, Olds, Pontiac or Cadillac you want simply by fabricating or buying new motor mounts and doing a little basic wiring and probably a crank spacer. I personally love the Cadillac 500 .

An alternative is get a different TH400 trans, swap the tail shafts out and use that. GM produced a lot of TH400s, Most late 60's and early 70's rear wheel drive Cadillacs came with them as well as Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles and Buicks. Any TH400 BOP trans will fit any BOP engine and simply changing the tailshaft will make it fit the existing transfer case and T-case adapter and even keep everything in the same place and thus keep the same drive shafts.

On my local Craigslist right now there is a rebuilt TH400 with a Chevy bellhousing that has had the tailshaft swapped out for a quadratrac to make a GM swap easy for someone.



Now to answer the OPs actual question which is
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSSmall
In terms of bolting up to the existing transmission, what's my best choice for a new motor?

What motors of similar HP/torque bolt up to the Borg Warner M-10?

Given that the general consensus is you should have a TH400 a Buick 350 taken out of a Jeep or an AMC V8 provided you get the factory adapter plate and crank spacer with it and it will bolt right up, although you may need to fabricate or buy the proper motor mounts.
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Last edited by Crankyolman : 01-01-2020 at 01:58 PM.
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