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View Poll Results: tbi or carb
Trailer the GW to Howell and pay them to make it right 3 11.54%
Try a different tbi system 3 11.54%
Go back to a carburator 6 23.08%
Chill out and have a springtime Bock beer. 16 61.54%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 03-09-2007, 02:28 PM
Ralph Rogers Ralph Rogers is offline
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Timing? Cam and ign.
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  #22  
Old 03-10-2007, 07:27 AM
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jaber jaber is offline
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What about vac lines to the trans? If it drops when put in gear, could it be the trans mod or line to it?

When I put mine together, I had like 50 something in vac, turned out the shop that vated my intake never put the inspection plate on the bottom of the intake.
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  #23  
Old 03-10-2007, 10:00 AM
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shackwrrr shackwrrr is offline
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hook the map sensor up to the manifold instead of the TB if there is no diff between on and off then that would be the problem. that port might be a spark port where theres no vac at idle and some vac just above idle. put the vac guage on that port and see what it reads. if nothing at idle then theres your prob hook it up to the fitting where the booster hooks up to there should be some smaller lines you can tap into
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2007, 10:54 PM
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Gadzooks2 Gadzooks2 is offline
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13 PSI fuel pressure with Fuel injection?
Is that right? I always though fuel injectors needed 50 and up depending on application.

Also, Everyone asks about vacuum leaks, did you spray everyplace it could leak with starting fluid or carb cleaner to see if the idle changes?

Good luck, with the troubleshooting, but I would keep trying to get the injection working. After years of tuning and fixing carbs, I hate'm
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2007, 08:01 AM
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crispyboy crispyboy is offline
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GM tbi systems run on low fuel pressure. I believe the Ford systems run on the high pressure.

I pulled the intake manifold yesterday and I'm going to have it checked out. I may have friend come over when I put it back together who has assembled many engines.
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  #26  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:03 PM
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DieselSJ DieselSJ is offline
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The 13 is about right for a GM TBI. I looked at your log and the thing is swinging from way rich to way lean and the IAC isn't doing much at all. With that wild swing in RPM, the IAC should be all over the place to correct it. I can see where the IAC is open when cold and it continues to close and bring the idle down as the engine warms, but it is doing nothing to try to stabilize the idle.

Shackwrrr has a good suggestion about reading from the manifold for the MAP.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that the injectors are a different size that what is programmed into the chip. That can certainly cause idle problems and it is easy to check. Post up the part numbers off the top of the injectors, or just tell me what colors are painted on them and I will tell you what flow rate they are. Then you can verify with Howell that they have it set right in their programming.

Also, make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks - those can throw off the reading at the O2 sensor. While we are talking about the O2 sensor, how far is it mounted away from the engine? More than about 12 inches from the head and you should be running a heated sensor.

One other question...do you have a smog pump? If so, injecting that air into the exhaust manifolds will really mess with the O2 readings.

Hang in there - you will find the problem.
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Last edited by DieselSJ : 03-14-2007 at 11:25 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-15-2007, 12:12 AM
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DieselSJ DieselSJ is offline
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I have been reading through your log a little more. The O2 reading is always rich - it is never going lean according to the O2. It is starting out about 13:1 or so, which is good for a cold idle, but then it just goes whacko and I see it dropping to 12:1, 10:1, 8:1 and it looks like there are a few times when it is hitting like 1:1. But it is NEVER going lean, even with the wild adjustments that the computer is trying to make. I see the computer dropping the BLM to 123, which means it is pulling fuel out, yet you are still way rich.

Are you sure you don't have any plug wires crossed? Valve sticking open? Bad spark plug? Weak coil?
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  #28  
Old 04-02-2007, 01:32 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Not sure where you are at with this but I recognize some of the others here that frequent my FI forum.

There is a lot of people trying to help but some of the info is a little off.

A few basics.

Stoick is 14.7AFR and 128 on the BLM
If the mixture is lean then the number goes up meaning the ECM is adding fuel.
If the AFR is rich then the number is low and the ECM removes fuel.

138 lean
118 rich

Now the O2 swinging up and down is normal for closed loop. That's how the ECM maintains 14.7.

The idle fluctuation or lean roll sometimes occurs. Extreme is normally from a larger cam and trying to idle in closed loop. The valve overlap and raw fuel will play havoc with the O2 readings.


The proper port for the MAP is between the fuel lines.

Now your log indicates that your TPS is set too high at 3.6%
It should be .54 volts or 0%

When you finally get it back together after removing the intake...if it still runs the same then try disconnecting the O2 sensor and see if it helps after it is warmed up.

I also recommend doing the initial setup procedures in the FI forum on the www.Binderbulletin.org where I reside.

I strongly urge all interested in FI to start with the FAQ's at the top of the forum there.

I do not claim to be a self appointed know it all or guru or anything other then a guy who plays with GM FI and have documented what I have learned and try to pass it on.

Good luck
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  #29  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:25 PM
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chr1s chr1s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1

I do not claim to be a self appointed know it all or guru or anything other then a guy who plays with GM FI and have documented what I have learned and try to pass it on.

Good luck

yep
Ive gotten tons of info there when troublshooting and tuining my TBI set up.
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  #30  
Old 04-02-2007, 03:11 PM
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LaJ10 LaJ10 is offline
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Ditto the site and Bill are both great
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  #31  
Old 04-02-2007, 07:07 PM
chakaD460 chakaD460 is offline
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Not to hijack, but how do you get to the FI site?

I keep getting this error: PHP has encountered an Access Violation at 018B51CA
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  #32  
Old 04-02-2007, 09:25 PM
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shimniok shimniok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13lftmfsj
Vacuum leak - I have resealed the tbi and adapter. The intake I have is a used Edelbrock Performer. Can these things warp? If it was an internal leak is it possible that I would be burning oil?

My new Performer manifold was warped, so, yes. Dumb question but doesn't the GM ECM tell you status of sensors as it's running?

Does a carb idle better on it?

Michael
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  #33  
Old 04-02-2007, 09:54 PM
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have you replaced (or checked) the TPS? sounds like a TPS problem to me.

Al
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2007, 01:58 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Did you see something in his data log file that shows it bad?
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  #35  
Old 04-03-2007, 08:16 AM
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I've had "rolling" idle problems in the field be caused by too large an exhuast - but that is usually on Fords. I have also recently at work had two OBD1 systems with dead 02 sensors doing things I'd never encountered before. In one instance the when the computer switched to closed loop the computer would jump up from 128 BLM to 168 BLM, the engine then would stumble and remain in limbo for a minute while the computer tried to figure out what the heck was going on. No I haven't read your datalog - I'm just adding two cents based on what Mark ( DieselSJ ) said about your 02 readings. I've seen a lot of weird things in 15 years on the job and like I said - I would have never guessed an 02 sensor was causing the problems I was having with a few customers cars, yet.... they were. Good luck, Steve.
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  #36  
Old 04-03-2007, 01:24 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Maybe he dumped the FI system by now???

Been a while since he replied.
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  #37  
Old 04-09-2007, 07:29 AM
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*UPDATE*

I was finally able to get back to the project.
  • Intake manifold - had it planed - warped about 7 thousands of an inch.
  • replaced throttle position sensor as a recommendation from Howell. Still idles at 3.6%. IAC is approximately 28.
  • Got one more chip from Howell - 6 total chips - whew...
The last chip seems to be the best so far. The blm's are at 128 at idle through 1200 rpm - jump around a bit at higher rpms. Range from 99 to 146 but these where the extremes - seemed like spikes - mostly it stayed in a window of 120 through 135 throughout the rpm range.
It does not stall anymore. I can put it in gear, make quick stops etc... Rpm dips some but seems to rebound quickly.
I will now put a license, insurance and tires on the vehicle and start driving it on a regular basis. I have not ruled out a trip to Howell as I think the idle is only fair - seems to range from 675 to 750.
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  #38  
Old 04-09-2007, 07:51 AM
82Waggy 82Waggy is offline
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I wonder what your vacuum reading is at Idle.

I also wonder if the high overlap of the cam you are using is causing your TBI idle troubles - intake dilution, low vac, etc.
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2007, 08:20 AM
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Vacuum at idle is 15 inches.

Cam spec:
Edelbrock 2132
Advertised: int 278, exh 288
@ .050: int 204, exh 214
@ cam: int.280, exh .295
@ valve: int .448, exh .472
intake: open 3 deg atdc, close 27 deg abdc
exhaust: open 42 deg bbdc, close 8 deg btdc
lobe seperation: 110 deg, intake centerline 105 deg
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  #40  
Old 04-09-2007, 08:31 AM
82Waggy 82Waggy is offline
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Vacuum seems high enough but overlap is 68 degrees, which may be a lot for a computer controlled motor.

Edelbrock recommends a 112LSA for use with their EFI systems.

Anyway, the high overlap could be giving your system fits - just a thought.
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Also bare tub restoring 69 BBB Javelin SST Go/Mod Pak 390 - Why build one when you can build two at twice the price!!
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