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Old 12-16-2015, 11:02 PM
firedog firedog is offline
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Options for in-tank fuel pumps

Hey guys --

So if this is more applicable in Fuel Injection, admin's feel free to move it. I'll spare the long story but here's a question:

So, when I put a TBI system in my YJ SBC 350 -- after many many years and many many hours lost to wrenching in uncomfortable places -- I finally realized a need to get my fuel pump back inside the fuel tank. Most TBI systems come with external push/pull pumps in line. But, if you wheel in places that have heat issues, and various other factors...you know fuel pumps like to push more than they pull, and they like to stay cool...say, like in a big tank full of cold fuel. SO, i went back and found a way to fit an appropriate pressure fuel pump back into the stock dip fuel pump/sending unit. Been happy as a clam since.

NOW to the 90' Waggy...with the Howell system...which has an external inline fuel pump. I would like to find a way to put a 13-19psi fuel pump into the tank. Has anyone done this, or know another system that fits in the access / sending unit panel dipper from the stock GW tank? For example, my YJ with the SBC 350 has a jeep fuel pump sending unit from a 4 cyl 93 YJ tank that was the same size as the "stock" 4.0L inline 6 my YJ originally had. Are there any system that either fit or that guys have made to fit to get a fuel pump inside the tank?

I'm sure I can't be the first...but if I am I'll find a way. Anybody done or seen solutions for this? Cheers!
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1990 Grand Waggy / Howell TBI AMC 360 / DUI Performance distributor / BJ's 6" lift ' / 35" Kevlar MTR's / 4.56 gearing / E2 lockers front and rear / Sway bar disconnects / Hydroboost brake system / HD UJoint rag-joint eliminating steering shaft / and various other real nice goodies
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Old 12-17-2015, 08:49 AM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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I just completed one based on a picture Babywag posted a while back. Mine is slightly different since it is going in a 81 j truck, but it is basically the same thing. For a waggy the inlet and outlet are not bent like the jtruck which mounts in the side rather than the top. The later wags may also have a different design and sending unit output ohm range but Babywag worked around that. I used a delco ep381 which I believe has around 155 lph at 60 psi and was used in later chevy tbi equipped trucks. The pressure regulator on the tbi will handle this pump fine as long as your return is adequate. I swapped out both inlet and outlet tubes on the sender unit to 3/8" verses the 5/16 and 1/4 that is stock. The tubes are just soldered into the sender so it is pretty easy to swap larger tubes. I used a 5/16" nylon socket head cap screw that i drilled two side by side holes through to pass the fuel pump wires through the sending unit flange. The holes were sized for a really tight fit pulling them though. I then sealed the ends with epoxy and used rubber washers to seal the bolt to the flange.

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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed

Last edited by TexasJ10 : 12-17-2015 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:52 AM
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http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=148956

late model sending unit/pick-up is lousy design, but it can be done.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:32 AM
firedog firedog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=148956

late model sending unit/pick-up is lousy design, but it can be done.


Reading through that thread...is that a complete unit that you replaced in there from some other application? or is that just a fuel pump you modified and added to a new "stock" Waggy sending unit dipper?
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1990 Grand Waggy / Howell TBI AMC 360 / DUI Performance distributor / BJ's 6" lift ' / 35" Kevlar MTR's / 4.56 gearing / E2 lockers front and rear / Sway bar disconnects / Hydroboost brake system / HD UJoint rag-joint eliminating steering shaft / and various other real nice goodies
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:10 PM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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Is there anyway to change the ohm range of an early sending unit to work with the post 87 gauges? Just wondering.
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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed
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  #6  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:15 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Modified stock '80-'85 sending unit.
Removed 1/4" return fitting.
Added 3/8" hard line in it's place.
Utilized existing 5/16" as new return line.

Gas gauge resistance values are NOT correct for the '86-'91 gauge.
I added '73-'85 gauge in a pod, since I have still not swapped the dash panel.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:21 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJ10
Is there anyway to change the ohm range of an early sending unit to work with the post 87 gauges? Just wondering.

You would have to reverse the resistance assembly & calibrate it.
Anything is possible...with time/effort/$$.

I'm a cheapass so just went the easy route.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:41 PM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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It's easy to see the problem with the later model sending unit. Any chance the sender portion could be moved further up the intake tube and the wire replaced that holds the float to restore full movement? I guess you could just move the pump to a new outlet tube and use the current outlet as a return. It might stir up a lot of sediment initially though and it may not fit through the tiny two inch hole.
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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed

Last edited by TexasJ10 : 12-17-2015 at 12:45 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:55 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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problem is size/location of sender resistance unit and small tank opening
I tried many different ways and gave up.
I used a tank cut in half and a later '89 sending unit to mock things up.

There are smaller pumps out ther, but I was going for cheap and easy.
Feel free to experiment but I wasted a bunch of time fighting a lost cause.
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  #10  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:55 PM
firedog firedog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
Modified stock '80-'85 sending unit.
Removed 1/4" return fitting.
Added 3/8" hard line in it's place.
Utilized existing 5/16" as new return line.

Gas gauge resistance values are NOT correct for the '86-'91 gauge.
I added '73-'85 gauge in a pod, since I have still not swapped the dash panel.


Been searching for that part number...where did you pick up that sending unit from? Are those fittings soldering in and relatively easy to change?
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1990 Grand Waggy / Howell TBI AMC 360 / DUI Performance distributor / BJ's 6" lift ' / 35" Kevlar MTR's / 4.56 gearing / E2 lockers front and rear / Sway bar disconnects / Hydroboost brake system / HD UJoint rag-joint eliminating steering shaft / and various other real nice goodies
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  #11  
Old 12-17-2015, 01:01 PM
firedog firedog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJ10
I just completed one based on a picture Babywag posted a while back. Mine is slightly different since it is going in a 81 j truck, but it is basically the same thing. For a waggy the inlet and outlet are not bent like the jtruck which mounts in the side rather than the top. The later wags may also have a different design and sending unit output ohm range but Babywag worked around that. I used a delco ep381 which I believe has around 155 lph at 60 psi and was used in later chevy tbi equipped trucks. The pressure regulator on the tbi will handle this pump fine as long as your return is adequate. I swapped out both inlet and outlet tubes on the sender unit to 3/8" verses the 5/16 and 1/4 that is stock. The tubes are just soldered into the sender so it is pretty easy to swap larger tubes. I used a 5/16" nylon socket head cap screw that i drilled two side by side holes through to pass the fuel pump wires through the sending unit flange. The holes were sized for a really tight fit pulling them though. I then sealed the ends with epoxy and used rubber washers to seal the bolt to the flange.


That looks good -- I can see what you're driving at. I'm REALLY hesitant to use a pump with that high of PSI. I did before, and had some serious over pressurization of my fuel tank -- even with good vents and return line. Because we wheel in Moab ... and the refractory heat from the rocks can be so intense...having an additional 40psi or so to "dump off" back to the tank and vent system, coupled with altitude and heat creates kind a disaster....only because i've played that game on my YJ. Point being, there is probably a pump that could setup similar to what you did, but maybe down in the 15-30 psi range vs 60+.
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1990 Grand Waggy / Howell TBI AMC 360 / DUI Performance distributor / BJ's 6" lift ' / 35" Kevlar MTR's / 4.56 gearing / E2 lockers front and rear / Sway bar disconnects / Hydroboost brake system / HD UJoint rag-joint eliminating steering shaft / and various other real nice goodies
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2015, 01:23 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firedog
Been searching for that part number...where did you pick up that sending unit from? Are those fittings soldering in and relatively easy to change?

Forget where I bought sender was ~$35 shipped, yes tubes are easy to modify/solder etc.
I just cut the 1/4" tube off, drilled a larger hole, then added the 3/8" line and soldered it.
Used a stock chevy pump & strainer from TBI application Airtex brand IIRC was like $25 shipped.
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Old 12-17-2015, 04:27 PM
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The original stock pump was the delco Ep386 with around 15 psi and 19 gph, (or equivalent). Supposedly, the dealers started replacing them with the Ep381 to limit fuel starvation issues and the 386 was considered pretty marginal. I haven't heard of fuel pressurization issues before, but I guess it could be a problem considering the old fuel systems in these fsj's. The interesting thing is that the typical pump used for a tbi conversion is the frame mounted e2000 external pump. That pump is rated per binder planets site, at 100 psi/40 gph, or 45 psi/25 gph. I saw a discussion about this one time that I can't find. There is a relationship between psi and gph that supported using the higher psi pumps in tbi systems but I can't remember the details.

Bj's offroad has both styles of sending units. As a IFSJA member you may get a discount as well if you ask them.
http://www.bjsoffroad.com/Grand-Wago...991_c_251.html
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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed

Last edited by TexasJ10 : 12-17-2015 at 05:30 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2015, 09:00 PM
firedog firedog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
Modified stock '80-'85 sending unit.
Removed 1/4" return fitting.
Added 3/8" hard line in it's place.
Utilized existing 5/16" as new return line.

Gas gauge resistance values are NOT correct for the '86-'91 gauge.
I added '73-'85 gauge in a pod, since I have still not swapped the dash panel.


So with what you're saying, you ended up using an earlier model sending unit which allowed you to use the newer fuel pump, but you lost your stock gauges. So I can't use the correct sender unit for my '90 to add a pump to AND have my stock gauge work because it's too small of an opening to work it all into...so I can't have my cake and eat it to..?
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1990 Grand Waggy / Howell TBI AMC 360 / DUI Performance distributor / BJ's 6" lift ' / 35" Kevlar MTR's / 4.56 gearing / E2 lockers front and rear / Sway bar disconnects / Hydroboost brake system / HD UJoint rag-joint eliminating steering shaft / and various other real nice goodies
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:11 PM
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You're free to try getting the newer style to work, I got frustrated and gave up.
If you read the other thread someone did the ship in a bottle approach.
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:42 PM
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Not cheap.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-pa...tallation-kit/
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Old 12-18-2015, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydog

LMAO
I could build ~3 more complete TBI systems for that much.
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  #18  
Old 12-20-2015, 05:12 PM
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this is how I did mine! It's not perfect for your application but may give you some ideas....

I used a walbro 392 pump

http://www.amazon.com/Walbro-GSL392-.../dp/B000ED8KTG

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=168517
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:32 PM
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You're going to be asking for problems putting an in-tank pump in a tank with no reservoir/baffles. The bowl in the carb gives you a whole lot more margin for error when the pickup is uncovered on a hard stop/corner.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acct21
You're going to be asking for problems putting an in-tank pump in a tank with no reservoir/baffles. The bowl in the carb gives you a whole lot more margin for error when the pickup is uncovered on a hard stop/corner.

Never had a single issue, been in there for years on my '88...
This is a TBI thread, no carb bowls to be found here.
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