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  #1  
Old 06-25-2014, 02:18 PM
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J10blues J10blues is offline
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??Headers??

And yet another "newby" question.....although I know we can do whatever we want to our rigs but I'm trying to decide if I want to install exhaust headers and was wondering if it's imperative that HEADERS be included if a 360 engine is being upgraded with an eddy 4bbl intake/carb,better camshaft, pistons,etc. for the sake of a sweater street performance, absolutely no racing venture here, just the frequent occasional pride ride!LOL!
I know it's definitely advisable to run dual exhaust for better flow but is using the oem manifold not kosher in the performance world? Any input from the engine gurus are greatly appreciated. Perhaps this is more of a "if it were me question".
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:33 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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not mandatory. dual exhaust on stock manifolds is a decent upgrade.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2014, 08:22 PM
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Thanks Ristow!
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77 J10
360 complete rebuild
TH400
Eddy Performer intake/Non EGR/CompCams 268 H
Eddy 1406
MSD 4AL/MSD 8519Dist/TFI coil
Holley fuel pump
MagnaFlow exhaust

02 Jeep Wrangler TJ
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"Fast is Fine, Accuracy is Final, You Need To Be Slow..In a Hurry!" Wyatt Earp.
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  #4  
Old 06-26-2014, 09:23 AM
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Yep. x2. Less headache too if you can get the donuts to live.

I'd clean out the inside of the manifold ports with a die-grinder and remove the cast-in "step" for the air injection tubes. they can hamper smooth flow.


Last edited by Tinkerjeep : 06-26-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:58 PM
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I have been doing a lot of research on this lately. From what my research indicates, there is really only one really good set of headers available for our 360's. They are made by Doug Thorley's. A pair that are ceramic coated are a little pricey but do enhance your low and mid range. Then again, for torque, its actually quite difficult to do better than the stock exhaust manifold. Yeah, its ugly and heavy, but they appear to have the best flow for what you want offroad, perhaps the Thorley are better, by a little. Now, if you go dueal exhaust, make sure you equalize them with an H pipe or you will lose torque. At least that's what I'm told by several quality custom ehaust shops.

As for me, down the road I will probably go with the Thorley headers, no catalytic converter, 2-3/4" stainless tubing, H pipe, and dual Magna flows or perhaps Borla mufflers. All stainless. This will cost a bit, sooooo, we shall pinch pennies and use the stock manifold for now.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texafornian
Then again, for torque, its actually quite difficult to do better than the stock exhaust manifold.

That is wrong.

Research this thread.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=151504
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2014, 09:46 PM
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Texafornian Texafornian is offline
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Doesn't sound wrong to me, after reading that thread. The headers tested didn't do all that much for the torque curve. They were a little better, but in my mind, the added gains versus the cost, was exactly what J10Blues was aking about. Note also, the headers tested were street versions. As for me, my Jeep is an exploration vehicle in the works. It will be offroad. From what I understand, the Thorley headers are designed for offroad usage in mind. Now? I'm no scientist, like many others, I do research, form opinions, ask questions, and try to make the best choice from there. You have a valid point that the headers tested showed some slight improvement, I figure its up to the end user whether or not the gains are worth the cost. IMO (humble) lol.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:29 PM
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The problem with Thorleys is two fold:
1) they cost more than your Jeep is really worth;
2) all of the "Y" fittings will crack out.

I have personal experience with this. The older model Thorleys were not coated and did not have full length head flanges. I fixed mine so they did.





The Y fittings cracked out twice in the 10 years they were on the J20 that became mine in 1996. ( I don't have pics of that.)

I dislike the fit and finish of the Hedmen Hedders, but they flow better that Thorleys and they last longer since they are a 4-1 long tube. Now with ball-socket collectors. They do out flow stock exhaust manifolds. the manifolds in the article posted by SC/397 were ported out like the pic I showed in post #4. those ALMOST flowed as well as the Edelbrock Shorties, which don't flow as well as the crappy old Hedmans tested.

From that thread and its test results here are the contenders in order from best to worst:
1) old style Hedmans
2)Edelbrock Shorties
3) Ported stock manifolds

Nothing else was tested. but Tri Ys are generally believed to not flow as well as 4-1 long tubes. I'd have to place the Tri-Ys between the Hedmans and the Eddies.

An "Exploration Vehicle" is a new term for me. You want to explain the duties involved within this classification?

Last edited by Tinkerjeep : 06-27-2014 at 01:21 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-27-2014, 12:44 AM
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Thanks for all the input guys! These are all good learning information. Texafornian, you are exactly spot-on for the reason I wanted to know if it was okay to use oem manifold instead of headers. My engine builder, Dale, was just wanting me to decide on headers or not? and whew! headers can get pretty pricey, especially because the rig is intended for racing at all. Crazydog, thank you for sharing that information as well, results of any research is always welcome knowledge. IMHO, I don't consider anyone on this forum is ever quite "wrong", because we all have different uses for our rigs and some of those uses don't require special innovations or precise science. Man, I love you guys....am I sure glad I joined this forum, everyone here has very special talents and knowledge! Again, thanks guys for all the help!
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Ben
77 J10
360 complete rebuild
TH400
Eddy Performer intake/Non EGR/CompCams 268 H
Eddy 1406
MSD 4AL/MSD 8519Dist/TFI coil
Holley fuel pump
MagnaFlow exhaust

02 Jeep Wrangler TJ
_________________________________________
"Fast is Fine, Accuracy is Final, You Need To Be Slow..In a Hurry!" Wyatt Earp.
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  #10  
Old 06-27-2014, 08:04 AM
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Sure thing! In my vocabulary, an exploration vehicle is a vehicle that is intended to go just about anywhere. I plan on giving it enough power, torque, lift, flex, reliability, and equipment so that it can safely and reliably tackle almost any trail it will fit on, handle any road it comes across, ford any reasonably crossable body of water, traverse most bodies of sand, and do all of this with decent comfort, and a relaxing amount of reliability. I still enjoy single vehicle offroading. In order to be safe, not only will someone know where we are headed, but we will also carry a ham radio, cd radio, water, emergency rations, and a small group of widely usable tools. If I can ever afford it, my goal is to have a vehicle capable of reliably traversing the Pan American roadway from the US through South America. My Jeep won't be specialized for rock gardens, or dunes, etc. I'm going to strive for a Jeep that may not excel at any single thing, but is tough, reliable, and capable of conquering many environments. That is an exploration vehicle, in my mind. (Smile, its a beautiful day)
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:31 PM
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DarkMonohue DarkMonohue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J10blues
for the sake of a sweater street performance
Reminds me of a couple of girls I used to know...



Anyway, as everyone else says, stock manifolds are fine, especially if you have the earlier style on the driver's side, which your '77 should. Flow is not a concern. Long-tube headers will make a bit more torque at low engine speeds due to the longer runners than stock manifolds, but it's not worth it for most people and most situations, given the higher cost and typical loss of durability.
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  #12  
Old 06-27-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMonohue
Reminds me of a couple of girls I used to know...



Anyway, as everyone else says, stock manifolds are fine, especially if you have the earlier style on the driver's side, which your '77 should. Flow is not a concern. Long-tube headers will make a bit more torque at low engine speeds due to the longer runners than stock manifolds, but it's not worth it for most people and most situations, given the higher cost and typical loss of durability.


Haha!! You caught that?? You spelling nazi!! Anyway, thanks for the input.
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Ben
77 J10
360 complete rebuild
TH400
Eddy Performer intake/Non EGR/CompCams 268 H
Eddy 1406
MSD 4AL/MSD 8519Dist/TFI coil
Holley fuel pump
MagnaFlow exhaust

02 Jeep Wrangler TJ
_________________________________________
"Fast is Fine, Accuracy is Final, You Need To Be Slow..In a Hurry!" Wyatt Earp.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2014, 05:26 PM
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Tinkerjeep Tinkerjeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texafornian
Sure thing! In my vocabulary, an exploration vehicle is a vehicle that is intended to go just about anywhere. I plan on giving it enough power, torque, lift, flex, reliability, and equipment so that it can safely and reliably tackle almost any trail it will fit on, handle any road it comes across, ford any reasonably crossable body of water, traverse most bodies of sand, and do all of this with decent comfort, and a relaxing amount of reliability. I still enjoy single vehicle offroading. In order to be safe, not only will someone know where we are headed, but we will also carry a ham radio, cd radio, water, emergency rations, and a small group of widely usable tools. If I can ever afford it, my goal is to have a vehicle capable of reliably traversing the Pan American roadway from the US through South America. My Jeep won't be specialized for rock gardens, or dunes, etc. I'm going to strive for a Jeep that may not excel at any single thing, but is tough, reliable, and capable of conquering many environments. That is an exploration vehicle, in my mind. (Smile, its a beautiful day)

Sounds like my favorite kind of JEEP! A Good, all purpose on/off-road vehicle capable of surviving the Zombie Apocalypse!

For similar builds like Tex; I'd recommend for max reliability: ported manifolds, and getting rid of the stupid heat block-off on the passenger side. Also equalize the pipe outlet IDs to both make 2.25". I think one side is slightly smaller. I'd run a dual 2.25" Y into a single 3" pipe to consolidate space and maximize flow for high-speed sand...also reduces some weight from not running full duals.

If you run Cats, make sure they are WELL shielded from long grass, but I'd recommend not running a Cat if you can avoid it. Running through long grass with a Cat will start range fires. We had a few in our area a couple years ago.

I'd also do a short body lift to fit bigger tires, and not mess with suspension lift. suspension lifts raise the whole CG higher while Body lift only lifts the sheet metal up instead of the body, frame, and drivetrain! Also, maybe consider cutting the Wag's fenders to fit 33" tires at minimum.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:28 PM
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Tinkerjeep Tinkerjeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMonohue
Reminds me of a couple of girls I used to know...




Um "Sweater Girls"...? They still build those kind of girls?
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:56 PM
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Back in 1996,
After breaking the drivers side exhaust manifold, while trying to remove a bad air injection check valve.
I bought a set of ceramic coated, Edelbrock "Tubular Exhaust System" headers. Very nice! they were over $550.00 back then.
Anyhow, I installed all of the air injection junk onto them, kept the heater valve in place.
Kept the rest of the exhaust stock, with a new cat, that was dealer installed under a recall at that time.

With this set up, my 91 Grand Wagoneer gained 1- 2MPG.
I wasn't loud at all, but had that nice header tick to it.
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