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  #1  
Old 08-03-2020, 02:06 AM
Brynjminjones's Avatar
Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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2150 Carb Bowl Draining Overnight

The past couple of days I've had a new problem with my '91 Wagoneer.
After sitting for a day or two, when I fire it up it will run perfectly for about 5-10 seconds, then completely die.

It will than take about 30 seconds of cranking before it will fire up again. After that it will be perfect all day.


This morning I decided to investigate, so I've taken the top off the carb (original MC 2150) and found it not far from empty.
I parked up at 10pm last night and this was at 8am today, so it's only taken 10 hours to drain this far.

What could be causing the carb to drain this quickly?

Dry carb after 10 hours by Brynjaminjones, on Flickr
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1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #2  
Old 08-03-2020, 04:42 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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The gas is boiling out when parked, you need to have a plastic spacer gasket( 1/2 inch or so thick) under the carb to insulate it from the heat of the engine. You can always install a small electric pusher pump for the fuel to the carb to help refill the bowl.
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  #3  
Old 08-03-2020, 05:01 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Thanks, that's an interesting idea that I hadn't considered.

Just having a think about it, if that was the case, surely I would have a similar problem within a shorter time period, not just several hours later?
I've got a similar carb (2100) on our Ford F100 without a spacer, and the bowl on that carb never empties like this.

The Wagoneer never used to do this, but it's now done it the last 3 cold starts.
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #4  
Old 08-03-2020, 06:27 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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Could be the power valve too. Pull the vacuum line of the PV cover and check for gas. Should be none.
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I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


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  #5  
Old 08-03-2020, 06:36 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Thanks Ristow, funny you should say that as I've also recently had to replace the power valve in our F100.

I was just starting to suspect the power valve before reading this, so I've just been and looked at the one on the Wagoneer.
With the vacuum line removed there is no obvious sign of gas, but the vacuum line itself did smell of it.

I've also just applied a vacuum to the power valve cover using a hand vacuum pump. I could easily get it up to 20" or so, but leaving it for about 10 minutes it will gradually drop almost to 0.

I assume it should be able to hold a vacuum, and if not it could be the culprit?
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #6  
Old 08-03-2020, 07:28 AM
Brynjminjones's Avatar
Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Well, to quote your own signature... "Ristows right.................again" haha

I couldn't resist pulling the carb, so I've just had it off and inspected it.

The whole underside of the carb was soaked in gas which was a good sign we're on the right lines.
I then pulled the power valve cover and had a nice little trickle of gas in there!

I've ordered a rebuild kit to get here in a couple of days' time.
To give you guys in the US an idea of how much it can cost having a Waggy here in the UK, it's $77.99 just for a rebuild kit by the time I've paid for the parts, fast shipping, plus UK taxes! Ouch
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #7  
Old 08-03-2020, 01:25 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynjminjones
Well, to quote your own signature... "Ristows right.................again" haha

I couldn't resist pulling the carb, so I've just had it off and inspected it.

The whole underside of the carb was soaked in gas which was a good sign we're on the right lines.
I then pulled the power valve cover and had a nice little trickle of gas in there!

I've ordered a rebuild kit to get here in a couple of days' time.
To give you guys in the US an idea of how much it can cost having a Waggy here in the UK, it's $77.99 just for a rebuild kit by the time I've paid for the parts, fast shipping, plus UK taxes! Ouch
Not so bad ... may be double what we'd pay in the States. It's a comparatively expensive kit. The 2-stage power valve is ca $25 by itself. Figure another $25 for overseas shipping plus VAT. Seems about right.

Glad you found your problem. Isn't there a Service Bulletin that moves the vacuum connection to the back of the engine? I presume that's to buffer it better from engine backfire which damages the power valve. Holley adds a ball valve to their carburetors to protect their power valves from backfire. Presumably you could add something like that inline with the vacuum connection.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
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  #8  
Old 08-03-2020, 04:40 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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the backfire thing is over....um...blown,lol.


here's the problem with motorcraft dual stage powervalves. most are very old stock even in a new rebuild box.


holley powervalves are too short.


Quick Fuel valves are long enough however. i'd get a 6.5 to 8.5" rated valve. i'd get all three since you're in england.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
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  #9  
Old 08-04-2020, 05:16 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Thanks both!

tgreese, it's a $36 kit from RockAuto, so it just gets a little painful watching the prices more than double!

The vacuum connection on my 360 already went to the back. I'd thought about shortening the path but maybe I won't now.

I don't think my problem was caused by backfiring anyway though. This Jeep hasn't backfired (to my knowledge!) since 2017 when I first got it!

Ristow, I think you're right that it might be a good idea to have multiple power valves in stock. I just need to find a place that sells them separately and ships over here.


My rebuild kit should be arriving in the next couple of days, so I'll update on here whether or not it does the trick!
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #10  
Old 08-04-2020, 07:22 AM
rocklaurence rocklaurence is offline
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Yeah but you have Free Health Care in UK I was in France 15 years ago and a pair of $30 Levis were costing $120 there. I also spent 2 years in Germany [1989-91] and couldnt believe the cost and expense of everything. Plus, over there you cant register a road vehicle if its modified/lifted /has bigger tires etc. No/Nope, Ill pay for my own Health Insurance and Small Government. Not that our Government and Fake News aren't Corrupt--Im not Blind
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  #11  
Old 08-04-2020, 08:32 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklaurence
Yeah but you have Free Health Care in UK I was in France 15 years ago and a pair of $30 Levis were costing $120 there. I also spent 2 years in Germany [1989-91] and couldnt believe the cost and expense of everything. Plus, over there you cant register a road vehicle if its modified/lifted /has bigger tires etc. No/Nope, Ill pay for my own Health Insurance and Small Government. Not that our Government and Fake News aren't Corrupt--Im not Blind

Haha, yes "free" healthcare straight from my paycheck, although I'll try not to go into a rant about that one!
My girlfriend works in healthcare and it's shocking how badly they get treated sometimes. If they didn't work so many (unpaid) overtime hours I'm convinced it would all fall apart. I've joked for years that she's a glorified volunteer!
On top of that, they have to constantly fight not to have their hours further increased or their pay reduced.

I know the "grass is always greener", but I'd move away from here in a flash!
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #12  
Old 08-04-2020, 08:45 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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Summit or Jegs might ship to england..?




Quote:
yes "free" healthcare straight from my paycheck,
Bingo!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2020, 10:45 AM
Brynjminjones's Avatar
Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2017
Location: Derby, England
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I've been doing a bit more playing with this, and I don't think my problem is completely solved.

I've got a new power valve in, and I've not had any issues with starting it in the morning yet. It runs and drives beautifully with no hesitation or smoke.

I wanted to find what jet size I have so I just took the top off the carb again. It's not been driven in since last night (about 18 hours ago) but the bowl was half empty again, although not as empty as before I changed the power valve.

As far as I can tell, the power valve is holding vacuum just fine when I put my hand vacuum pump on it, plus there doesn't appear to be any gas in the vacuum line.

How much gas is normal to lose from the bowl overnight?
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2020, 12:22 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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Probably normal evaporation from the hot engine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-11-2020, 12:32 PM
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JeepsGot360 JeepsGot360 is offline
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My 2100 and 2150 both do it. I believe having the fuel filter lower than the carb allows the fuel to drain back into the vent portion of the filter. I attached a link that talks about a check valve. https://imgur.com/a/NsIfHE5
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2020, 12:55 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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the check valves are built into the fuel pump. it couldn't pump fuel without them.


the fuel inlet needle in the carb is well above the float level,fuel in the bowl cannot get to the inlet to drain back. even if it could the needle closes once the fuel level drops a bit.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-12-2020, 01:29 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Thanks all, I'm really hoping it's just normal evaporation. It has been hotter than usual for the UK lately (about 85f) so I guess I'd be experiencing this more than ever.

When I get a chance this morning I will quickly pop the top off the carb again to see if it has lost much more, then report back.
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2020, 08:15 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Factory air cleaners with the cold air intake and vapor recovery flap should seal up (comparatively) tight - assuming it's working. The bowl of a 21xx topped with an open element air cleaner will evaporate fast in my experience (days? a couple weeks? likely depends on the air temp).
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2020, 09:12 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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I had another look at it today and it's pretty empty again.

Later on when I went to drive it, it fired right up but died again 5 seconds later. After about 10 seconds of cranking (to pull gas through) it fired right up again and was fine.

I just can't imagine that this could be normal evaporative loss. Our F100 with a 2100 carb has never had this issue!

As for the air cleaner, for some reason it has one from a '79 on it. It's very similar to the original but doesn't have the inner flap.
The outer flap is disabled.
It's actually the exact same setup as our F100 which, again, doesn't have this problem!

I really don't get where the fuel could be going!

Here's a pic of the fuel level today, about 1.5 days after last driving:

IMG_20200812_083904 by Brynjaminjones, on Flickr
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1991 Grand Wagoneer - Hunter Green. All stock. Rebuilt 360 with Melling MTA-1 cam.

1998 Cherokee (XJ) 4.0
1997 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) 4.0
1974 Ford F100 390
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2020, 05:59 PM
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letank letank is offline
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Reformulated gas is different than gas of 30 years ago... I remember going to arizona in the summer , 110, 115F... I never had any vapor lock... did not even bother to lift the hood.


Also is the F100 a 6 cyl... ? the V8 has the EGR cross over channel for the exhaust, so the exhaust is cooking the intake manifold.... The other V8 that I use has a dedicated exhaust piping outside the engine it runs on the side to the EGR sitting near the exhaust manifold, and a feed to the intake
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