Altitude?

[Revhendo]

OK, so being the new guy here, I have a question about changing altitude with a TBI vs. a carb. Just keeping up on the Waggy, I've been running the TBI thing through my thick skull. I can junkyard most everything I need, I've done my fair share of FI swaps at work (TPI, LT1 and now LS's). I am just trying to wrap my thick skull around the needs on tuning the TBI ECM (why won't a stock 350 chip get me running?) and doing battle with the smog nazis. I think ultimately I'm gonna bite the bullet and swap the drivetrain out for an LM7 or LQ4 with matching OD trans and TC. Until then, the question.

The Grand Wagoneer is our get to fishing rig. It mainly gets used at sea level but it might include a couple of mountain trips (maybe 7000 feet). I'm thinking TBI would be nice for this but, is it needed for the occasional jaunt up the hill? Will the stock carb cope with this so I can save my duckies until I can shoot myself in the head with the driveline swap? We're not doing any rock crawling or extreme trails, just off the beaten trail to the better fishing spots, so I am not hugely worried about inclined starving of the carb.

I also have to keep money in my budget to replace every switch in my rig as it goes out.

Twice.......

[jaber]

I live @ 5200' and when I have to leave town, theres at least a 1k' drop or rise. The TBI makes it a fun ride, instead of dealing with the difference. It has been a while since I've had to deal with a carb, so dont think I'd be much help there. Others here are too stubborn to swap, so could relate their troubles better...

[Revhendo]

I live @ 5200' and when I have to leave town, theres at least a 1k' drop or rise. The TBI makes it a fun ride, instead of dealing with the difference. It has been a while since I've had to deal with a carb, so dont think I'd be much help there. Others here are too stubborn to swap, so could relate their troubles better...

I don't know about that much help part. At the very least, I got a grin before the coffee was ready. Between this and Joe's comment on another thread about only having rocks and pointy things in his toolbox, it's going to be a great day.

[FSJ Guy]

Going from 5,000 ft to Ouray trails (9,000 - 12,000 ft) really is a PITA with a carb. I was running extremely rich all the time.

With TBI, it's smooth sailing. Since you're in CA, you will need the CARB approved Howell kit, unless there is some sort of system where you can get your homebrew kit "approved" by the inspectors. I'm not in CA, so I have no firsthand knowledge of how things work there.

[tgreese]

... Since your in CA, you will need the CARB approved Howell kit, unless there is some sort of system where you can get your homebrew kit "approved" by the inspectors. ...

Yes, as I recall, the only way to do this is to get the Howell kit that comes with a CARB number. Or do a complete engine swap from a later model vehicle with the EFI/TBI/MPI that you want. A homebrew TBI on an AMC engine isn't going to pass - the rules do not allow it.

The Howell kit is not cheap (ca $1400), but it will give you altitude-compensated TBI using standard GM components, a chip tailored to your engine, and a CARB approval number. Plus you can clean out lots and lots of the emissions junk from under your hood (down to vapor recovery, one-vacuum-tube EGR, and PCV), and remain legal.

(The California regs are really dumb, and seem more targeted at getting old cars off the road than at preserving air quality. You'd think that any setup that would pass the tailpipe test would be ok, but that's not how the law is written).

[Revhendo]

Well, seems like I kinda answered my own question today. Maybe. I know I have my homework cut out for me, but I picked up a 89 454 TBI complete less fuel system at the pull it yourself joint. I was actually looking for the HVAC controls (got one out of a little Cherokee). Passed this wrecked dually that still had it all in it. Some of the retainer clips are broken, but that is all replaceable. It had the 7747 computer which is what I understand to be THE one. Man those people gouge you at the register.

Oh, and I guess I better start working my smog nazi arguements.....

[FSJ Guy]

The Howell system doesn't use the 454 TBI, AFAIK.

BUT, if you want to get the CARB certified Howell system to pass your e-test, you could then install the 454 TBI (visually, they're very similar) and then tune a custom chip yourself for even more performance. All you'd need is a Windoze laptop, a chip burner and a data cable.

A 454 TBI with the 454 injectors might be a little overkill for a stock 360, however.

[Revhendo]

The Howell system doesn't use the 454 TBI, AFAIK.

BUT, if you want to get the CARB certified Howell system to pass your e-test, you could then install the 454 TBI (visually, they're very similar) and then tune a custom chip yourself for even more performance. All you'd need is a Windoze laptop, a chip burner and a data cable.

A 454 TBI with the 454 injectors might be a little overkill for a stock 360, however.

I've read through your BSJ page several times. I've also been ghosting over on Binder. Then I read your pages again. So, now I'm totally over info'd. If I get the Moates burner and data cable, will that allow me the ability to datalog when I screw it up and need your help?

I was thinking about scoring the 350 TBI on my next jaunt to the junkyard. Seems I fubar'd the ALDL and need to get another. Problem is, Pick your Nose ain't so cheap anymore. Along with the non-homie price I am paying, they charge cores, waste, and recycle fees. I just noticed that there is also a tax for the entry fee. E-bay is getting better looking.

What about 350 injectors in a 454TBI? The 350 TBI is use on the smaller V6s with smaller injectors. Would that formula follow for the bigger TBI?

[Revhendo]

I would love to get the Howell system. Problem is, I can do this conversion myself. If I had the spare dough, I would drop it in a heartbeat, but that is a very expensive CARB decal in my case. For another not a lot more, I could do an LS swap. Which, may still happen eventually. Then I'll have a driveline to throw into another FSJ project to ask a bunch of questions about.

[FSJ Guy]

I've read through your BSJ page several times. I've also been ghosting over on Binder. Then I read your pages again. So, now I'm totally over info'd. If I get the Moates burner and data cable, will that allow me the ability to datalog when I screw it up and need your help?

Ha ha. Yes. All you minimally need is a burner and an ALDL cable (plus a laptop, but that's a given)

What about 350 injectors in a 454TBI? The 350 TBI is use on the smaller V6s with smaller injectors. Would that formula follow for the bigger TBI?

You could put the 350 injectors into a 454 TBI. The pod is the same. I have 454 injectors in my 350 TBI.

[Revhendo]

Ha ha. Yes. All you minimally need is a burner and an ALDL cable (plus a laptop, but that's a given)




You could put the 350 injectors into a 454 TBI. The pod is the same. I have 454 injectors in my 350 TBI.

Oh hey, thanks for the heads up on that stock intake. Could've mentioned that dude weighed more than the aft section of the Titanic. It liked to of killed me dragging my chunky butt over the grille and into the dark abyss of my engine compartment.

[csuengr]

I run a 2150 with altitude compensator on my 360 in my CJ and it has no problem dealing with altitude changes from 3,200 ft to 13,000 ft. It just suffers from lack of power as altitude increases like any internal combustion engine. It actually doesn't idle any different at 13,000 ft as it does at 5,000 ft.

[jaber]

As for which TBI and injectors, I read somewhere that the 350 TBI is good up to about 400CI and the 454 from there up. That has served me well in figuring the "simplest" route. Others have done different, but I'm still trying to figure the tuning crap out. I'm not afraid to say its kicking my arse. If I just had a road map it might be easier, but am feeling a little overwhelmed by the tuning.
It runs very well though...

[Revhendo]

As for which TBI and injectors, I read somewhere that the 350 TBI is good up to about 400CI and the 454 from there up. That has served me well in figuring the "simplest" route. Others have done different, but I'm still trying to figure the tuning crap out. I'm not afraid to say its kicking my arse. If I just had a road map it might be easier, but am feeling a little overwhelmed by the tuning.
It runs very well though...

I could be wrong, (still working through it all) but I believe I read somewhere (Binder?) that there is a website that has a collection of BINs that you can download from other users and burn onto a chip. It's kinda like EFIlive or LSedit(?) for the chip guys. Not sure, like I said, still working on that part.