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  #1  
Old 03-16-2002, 10:01 AM
Jerk
 
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when I was taking welding classes about 9 years ago I learned something long known in the pipe industry- "double the diameter (I.D.) and you quadruple the flow capability". Now, having brought that to light, I'll enlighten you a bit more, on a NON- mass air flow sensor controled or NON O2 sensored intake/exhaust system, i.e.- a normal carbed engine w/ no electronic fuel dilivery - our jeep/amc engines in other words, YOU CANNOT HURT PERFORMANCE BY PUTTING ON A LARGER I.D. EXHAUST PIPE. the same is not true for the o2 sensored/ mass air flow sensored engine. On OUR engines, If you want to run 8" pipe, it wont hurt a thing. if you run .75" pipe...it will hurt your performance.
Another point: As far as "fast moving exhaust gasses" goes, it makes no difference how fast the gasses are moving, as long as there is a small or preferably zero level of BACK PRESSURE. back pressure is caused by a restrictive muffler, cat, pipe, manifold, even a high pressure tail pipe exit, as in, the exit end of the exhaust pipe being in a high air flow area of the vehicle, hampering efficient exiting of exhaust gasses. for an extreme example, think about driving 70 mph with your exhaust pipe facing out the front of your wag! dumb example, wouldn't happen in the real world, but its just an example.
Now bearing in mind that an engine is an air pump, and the freer it can move air in and out of itself the more efficient and thus more powerful it will be, the largest diameter, and shortest running exhaust you can install is undoubtedly the best. of course, there are monetary, legal and spacial concerns as to how big you can go and still be practical.
With all that being said, I'd go with a good 2.5" or 3" free flowing system, duals or single. the duals and headers really only show a marked improvement at higher rpm, say free way speeds. so find out what you are going to be doing and go from there. as far as my preference sound wise, I'd stay away from glasspacks unless you want LOUD! but that's just my opinion. Matt W.
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2002, 10:11 AM
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Got a question, then: if there isn't any back-pressure (zero preferably, as you stated?), won't that eat away at the valve seats?

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  #3  
Old 03-16-2002, 10:32 AM
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no. this is not a factor in exhaust valve seats(I'm assuming you mean just the exhaust valves, since they handle the hot gas) being erroded. If you have a long duration/ high overlap cam and a a super charger, you can get preburned air/fuel mixture drawn through the cylinder and into the exhaust system and it CAN be ignited in the pipe, though! However, I have never heard of a valve seat going bad due to freeflowing exhaust in a street engine. also bear in mind, "zero back pressure" is not a real world achievement on a street driven engine...unless you like to run full drag race prepped engines in your street rig.

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Matt W ]</p>
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Old 03-24-2002, 08:17 AM
Weelspin Weelspin is offline
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Good information..... however, I just put a 36" glasspack on my FSJ and it really isn't all that loud. Point on this though.... I have a 258 and a cat. It actually purrs quite nicely. I was worried about the back pressure though.... thanks for easing my mind. I had heard the lack of back pressure actually DECREASED my torque.....
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Old 03-24-2002, 09:18 AM
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<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matt W:
YOU CANNOT HURT PERFORMANCE BY PUTTING ON A LARGER I.D. EXHAUST PIPE. <hr></blockquote>

Right, you can't hurt the performance, but like with heads, or a cam, you will change the effective range. Instead of having X amount of tourque at X RPM's, you'll move those figures around a bit. So instead of peak tourque being at say 2000 RPM's, you might now have peak tourque at 2500 RPM's.
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Old 03-24-2002, 02:10 PM
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Arch is right, too big of a pipe and you will lose power on the low end. John Garrety ( I have prolly misspelled his name) wrote a book on R.V. performance and in his book he went to great detail on exhaust systems and thier effect on power and torque. He dyno tested many different styles and sizes of exhaust systems with a chassis dyno and found that you could hurt low end torque and power by going to too big of an exhaust pipe. Also while you could gain upper end power most of us would never see the gains as we do not see more than 4000 rpm on a regular basis. Too big or too small of pipe can and will hurt the power of most of our engines. Even race motors are limited on the size of pipe you should run. If this was not true, you would see 10" pipes (well maybe not that big) on race cars. Exhaust tuning is an scientific art form that takes a lot of dyno time and experience to master.
The rule of thumb for street motors is no more than 2" to 2.25"dia for a small block motor and 2.25" to 2.5" for big blocks unless these are really built motors.
BTW too short or too long of a pipe can also hurt performance.
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Old 03-24-2002, 09:20 PM
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Too short of a pipe will not only hurt performance, it'll hurt the engine, by allowing the exhaust valves to burn. Too much fresh oxygen, too close at hand.

Jeepbob, and Arch are 100% correct about the proper diameter for a street/4x4 engine. If you go bigger than 3" max, you'll lose most of your bottom end. Installing an "H" or cross-over pipe will help restore some of it, due to increased scavaging, but not all (technically, it doesn't just go away, but moves to a place in the rpm band, that you aren't likely to get too, more than once).

For the average 360/401, 2.25" pipes are completely adequate for a dual system, while 2.5" pipe is a good start on a single system. If you do some (or a lot) of engine mods, then you can increase the size of the exhaust, but keep in mind that pipe diameter WILL affect where the torque of the engine comes into play.
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2002, 11:24 AM
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The faster you move the exaughst away from the motor the torque # go down. So I have to say bigger is NOT better. If you ever looked at the exhaust on some of the torque monsters the exhaust systems were restrictive. My 70 with the 350 in it I beleive has a 1 7/8" exaughst system. I have no intention of opening it up, I like my LOW RPM torque, you loose that with Headers and Big pipes. However this is a subject that can get kicked around forever. Jeepers choose your PIPES, and go play!!!
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  #9  
Old 03-26-2002, 10:19 PM
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Thank You One & All, I have to rebuild the entire exhaust system on the wag, from the manifolds back. Staying at 2", going to duals, going out the passenger side.
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  #10  
Old 03-29-2002, 10:14 AM
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well guys, as usual, some of you are wrong, some right, and some both. low end torque is great for a diesel and 5 gears, not for a 401 and 3 gears, if you have a slightly built 401, or even 360 for that matter, you already have really excellent torque at 1500-2000 rpm. what most people don't realize, and I'm not pointing fingers or calling anyone dumb, is that your hp doesn't come into play untill 3000 rpm on those same built engines, tuning a v8 for a flat power band is essential for a truck and general use engine. this is done by using a decent dual plane intake manifold and streetable cam for low end torque, and tuning exhaust for higher rpm. this not only widens the power band, but makes sure your exhaust is definately not the bottleneck in the airflow into, through, and out of the engine. Edelbrock's book "the great manifold bolt-on" directly relates to this- I reccomend it to everyone interested in volumetric efficiency and power gains! as to the big cu engines of the 70s, the reason no one put big pipes on them or headers, is because they not only didn't need them, (as stated, they never operated above 3200 rpm, not nly because of the lower speed limits, but also a big engine with heavy rotating assembly doesn't last too long at 6000 rpm), also, the intended owners did not like loud pipes in a 4000-5000 lb boat/car. for the boys that did like loud pipes, they made the mustangs/ camaros/ firebirds/ chargers. headers and big pipes don't hurt torque on an engine unless it has little torque to begin with. everyone that grew up in the 50s/60s knows the easiest way to make torque is large displacement- still true today.
As far as what racers would be running if it was good for power (the 10" pipe example), I hate to tell you, but top fueler dragsters don't run any pipe but maybe 24" from the exhaust port to the tip, which opens to atmosphere, they also make approximately 7000 hp! any body else who runs pipes in a governed racing event is only allowed to run what the rules say. period. same goes for intake, cam, carb, cubic inches, tires, etc. the list is longer than I can think to write it all down. basically every detail of a governed (like scca, nascar, etc.) car is dictated by a rule book, those rules are not made to allow the best performance possible, only to keep things fair and safe! I don't mean to yell, thats just the way it is. another detail worth mentioning, a jeep, with very few exceptions, is not a nascar racer. the point being, most race cars are very "peaky" in their power bands, and these power bands are very narrow and high up in the engines rpm range. everything is tuned for that range, not so on a street/ off road vehicle. the broader and higher the power(not rpm wise, just higher output) the better, (within reason),in my opinion. - Matt
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Old 03-29-2002, 03:44 PM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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Well Matt,
Books do not always translate into the real world. A properly tuned exhaust system can be good for up to 50 hp on a street car or 4x4 depending on what was on it before. Even 401's do not have so much torque that they can afford to lose a whole lot on the bottom end where most of our motors run most of the time. Except for a few classes SCCA does not put a whole lot of restriction on exh systems. Nascar does limit the size of the pipes but only did so after consulting all the enginge builders to find what was the maximum size they would use (source here was Nascar Tech on the tube a few days ago). If you think that top fuel headers are not tuned then you have not talked to the top fuel engine guys. For an idea of some radical tuned headers check out some of the late 60's Indy and road racing cars. They did not call those headers a bundle of snakes without a reason.
If you want even more proof come on up here and play is some of our "clay on sand" mud pits or up at the dunes where Torque is king and where high end power won't get you to the top if you can't turn the tires and keep the revs up. Automatics and torque monsters rule the dunes and pits which is why I am dumping AMC motors and going to Pontiac power in my Wag.
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Old 03-29-2002, 03:47 PM
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Well Matt,
Books do not always translate into the real world. A properly tuned exhaust system can be good for up to 50 hp on a street car or 4x4 depending on what was on it before. Even 401's do not have so much torque that they can afford to lose a whole lot on the bottom end where most of our motors run most of the time. Except for a few classes SCCA does not put a whole lot of restriction on exh systems. Nascar does limit the size of the pipes but only did so after consulting all the enginge builders to find what was the maximum size they would use (source here was Nascar Tech on the tube a few days ago). If you think that top fuel headers are not tuned then you have not talked to the top fuel engine guys. For an idea of some radical tuned headers check out some of the late 60's Indy and road racing cars. They did not call those headers a bundle of snakes without a reason.
If you want even more proof come on up here and play is some of our "clay on sand" mud pits or up at the dunes where Torque is king and where high end power won't get you to the top if you can't turn the tires and keep the revs up. Automatics and torque monsters rule the dunes and pits which is why I am dumping AMC motors and going to Pontiac power in my Wag.
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  #13  
Old 03-30-2002, 12:44 AM
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bob, what world are you living on? the books I read are taken from race proven, and dyno proven real world results. as far as me saying that dragsters don't have tuned pipes, I never said that, I just said they only have about 24" of pipe from head flange to end of pipe, all seperate pipes from one another, and they don't seem to have a problem with back pressure or measley torque! I don't care what people drive where you are, or what they are doing, but you should get your info strait when it comes to torque versus horsepower and what a built 401 has for torque numbers. a built 401, with a broad power band makes 400 lb feet at 2000rpm, that goes up to 450 at around 4000 rpm and doesn't drop until after 5000 rpm. as far as hp, it doesn't get into the 300s until around 3000rpm and climbs to 350 at 5000 rpm, roughly. this is my engine to the gnats a$$ on desktop dyno- a paper estimate, but accurate enough for this debate! Now, you put what ever engine you want in your rig, I don't care, stick a 502 crate engine in it if you want, that isn't going to change the FACT that a 401 still has decent torque in the low rpm range. if you want more, build it in! also, your getting a small block engine that can compete with the big 3 big blocks of past years, without the front heavy handling characteristics.
As far as high rpm not getting anyone to the top of a hill in sand, it all depends on traction /gearing/ vehicle weight/ wheel base/ power band, not to mention driver skill. Ever seen the Reykevic(sp?) hill climbers? those boys have some nasty rigs and they climb practically strait up flakey, crushed lava hills, let me tell you something bob, it ain't at 1000 rpm that they do it. They use long, light rigs, high hp engines, big paddle tires and sometimes even nitrous. I believe the rigs are 800 hp mills and they are definately 4 wheel drive. the key, actually to driving on sand or mud is momentum, and high speed, ask anyone who runs in the African rallies, or off road rallies...of course those boys know how to drive their rigs too!
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Old 03-30-2002, 12:59 AM
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Hey JeepBob, I will play with ya in the "clay on sand" mud pits or up at the dunes when I come down this fall. You will have to help me wash my rig when we are done though. Will bring my own torque and empty coffee cup, heard ya have a pot on all the time.
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:01 AM
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BTW, bob-
I just ran a simulation, note, did not say dyno test in "real world!" and with my exhast system changes from what I have now-small tube headers and mufflers, I get 450 lb/ft at 2000 rpm, this stays in the 400s until 5000rpm and my hp starts at 173 at 2000 which peaks at 360 at 4500-5000 and drops below 300 at 6000rpm. pulling the mufflers off, increases both power and torque across the board, Large tube headers and mufflers increases across the board over that, and finally, large tube headers and open exhaust- 466 torque and 177 hp @2000rpm, 380 hp @ 5000, staying above 300 until 6500-7000rpm, torque peaks to 480 @ 2500-3000 and remains in the 400s until 5000rpm. so what does this indicate? maybe less restrictive exhaust is a good thing for low end torque and high end hp sitting on our Yeep engines. Sorry this is me telling you this based only on a simulation BASED on real world examples and not you seeing it for yourself in your rig, but hey sometimes you cant do it all yourself and a little faith is required. that, common sense, and an analytical, open mind BOB! somethings you haven't been exhibitting here recently. Do you think I'm saying this just to Bull$hit you?, no! I posted the topic because I kept hearing the same "old-wives-tales" concerning exhaust systems and the magical mysteries therin! you know like the one : "if you have an auto tranny that's burning fluid, DON"T CHANGE IT! it'll get worse, it's gotten used to the old fluid!" same deal- "open exhaust will ruin your power and torque, that engine needs the back pressure to make sure it can't breathe too hard and errode the valve seats"-HOGWASH! JOIN THE MODERN AGE PEOPLE! READ A **** BOOK! they aren't just there to fill empty libraries!
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Old 03-30-2002, 10:11 AM
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Matt,
I think you have spent too much time on simulators, desk top dyno is not the most accurate tool in the world but it is a fun toy. When you are ready to come out and play with the big boys, we can show you how it is done. Some of the guys on this site have seen my junk and how it works and thier past posts have told the story. You get worked up way too easy and it is way too fun to do it, try lightening up a little. As far as an open mind I try more stuff than most people even dream about which is why I am going to switch to Pontiac power in my Wag (desktop dyno'ed at 570 hp and 693 ft/torque but will be detuned by going to dished pistons). As far as reading a book my automotive library makes a librarian jealous (did you not read my first post?) and I have read them all. Practical experience is also worth a thing or two and I have 40 years or working on and driving compitition cars, 4x4's, big trucks, and bikes. I also spent many years in the engineering dept at GM and even some time at AMC engineering. I also do not take my own judgement as being 100% correct as I am always bouncing ideas off of people with huge amounts of automotive experience. I even learn a few things off this forum. Every now and then I can even answer a question.
BTW my offer still stands, so in the words of Mills Lane "Lets get it on!"

Pete, whenever you get down here we WILL hit the trails and I will want to come up to the upper this summer. My cousin just bought a pump with which to fill the pit from the swamp/pond.
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Old 03-30-2002, 12:51 PM
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so you've got all this "real world" experience and you're still ignorant...sad. I really have more important things to do than "get it on" with some one who laughs in the face of expert gleaned knowledge, note: I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just listen to them, especially if they have been in the performance industry for 40 years! what would you hope to prove from "getting it on" anyway? I didn't build my j20 to go thrash it, its a daily driver, that hauls materials/tools/me to job sites and occasionally goes off road/plays in the mud/snow. you on the other hand apparently build specific use only vehicles, example: where did you get a pontiac engine with those specs? obviosely not stock, and therefore, why not use an amc v8, you can build them almost as strong and there is no adapting needed? just my opinion.
regardless of where you got it, it ain't gonna be a streetable engine, mine is. anyway you look at it, what I said about pipes and performance has been proven time and time again, but, hey- you remain ignorant, that's your choice. far be it for me to try to enlighten anyone around here. **** it!
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Old 03-30-2002, 02:01 PM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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You just don't get it do you, I gotcha again.
You are way too easily riled up.
BTW the pont motor is not stock but is driven on the street. The reason for going to it over an AMC motor is cost. It costs way more to buy the AMC parts to build 450 to 500 hp than I have in this motor. If I had to build this motor from scratch it would be a $4000 motor, to do the same to an AMC would be $5000 (I have priced it out). I only have to freshen this motor up and I will put new pistons in it and still have less than $750 in it.
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Old 03-31-2002, 12:04 AM
Dive 30 Dive 30 is offline
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OK . . . ignorance is about to open it's mouth . . . so everyone duck and cover.


Where is torque generated? I know the power stroke of the motor. I understand the intake side. More air=more O2 to burn. More fuel=more fuel to burn. So on the intake side, the more fuel/air mixture (as a side question, why is the ideal fuel/air ratio 14.7:1, the same as 1 atm [14.7psi]?) we cram into the cylinder, the more we have to burn, thus the bigger the bang, thus more power.

But on the exhaust side, the benefit I see to a tuned exhaust is cylinder scavenging. You create a negative pressure on the cylinder, thus it sucks out more exhaust and pulls more air/fuel in, thus bigger bang, thus more power.

But isnt' the actual torque of the motor generated when the bang happens and the fuel/air mixture ignites? Thus the motor is closed to the negative (or ambient in Matt's ideal) pressure on the exhaust side, right? Or is valve overlap such that at low RPM a high velocity exhaust will actually suck fuel/air out of the cylinder (or maybe reduce compression?) reducing torque? Whereas more restrictive exhaust (read mid velocity) will scavenge the cylinder at lower RPMs without depleting the fuel/air mixture, right? But a more restrictive exhaust will be just that (restrictive) at higher rpms causing exhaust gas to remain in the cylinders thus reducing power at higher RPMs? Thus why VVT flattens torque curves. You can have the right amount of scavenging for a larger RPM band right?

help me out guys
Phil

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Dive 30 ]</p>
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Old 03-31-2002, 03:45 AM
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Well, I see this subject is as controversial as Stick shifts versus Automatics, Ford versus Chevy, and so on. I think when one person believes in an idea that is great, and when you put the idea to function even better. However trying to make everyone believe as you do, will not fly well here, or in the real world. Like the saying you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. I see no reason to argue over the theories of the size of pipe to use. Matt its awesome you have a wealth of info and like to share your thoughts and ideas but to get all bent out of shape RESTRICTS (PUN INTENDED) your line of thinking and the initial purpose of your thread on this subject. I think you meant to share with everyone what you feel to be true and would work and that is great. However some of us old farts will not take the info as gospel truth, and Sorry I do not. However some will and may or may not like the results. I have no Desktop Dyno's nor do I read books unless I am after specific info, I do not have time to read, play desktop Dyno, cause I am doing the building and rebuilding all the time. I came from a long line of busted knuckles, greasy finger nailed and oil grease matted hair type life forms. In this case of the exhaust system advice or info your choice I would not want to be insisting this is what will work, someone go out and spend big $$$$ on a system on your recommendation and seemingly well researched info, only to have it not perform as intended. I do not know if it would be the way to go or not, I think it is my choice to say no it will not work on my rig and I will continue to use my OEM small piped system and go Jeepin like I have for years. Matt do not get defensive or offensive on this subject. I have many ideas that have been shot down by others because it was considered a poor idea or the info was incorrect. I never take it to heart, c'mon this is how friends and Jeeps are made, suggestions and criticism, nothing is gained by getting mad! I would like to share this web site for those who are confused now. This is the info I believe and consider fact for the Exhaust specs for any of my rigs. I will not argue this any further. Matt you have lead us all to the water however not all of us are thirsty, but thanks for sharing. Here ya go Click the Exhaust section in the following or read the whole article good info.
<a href="http://home.att.net/~jroal/perftheory.htm#Exhaust" target="_blank">
Remember, Lets all have fun no matter what you decide to pass gas through!!!!!!!</a>

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Crazy_Jeepman ]</p>
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