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Old 07-11-2007, 03:52 AM
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jeeping1974 jeeping1974 is offline
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which to go with? NP205 or Dana 300?

there are two guys selling t-cases in my area. one has a NP 205 that came out behind a chevy TH350. the other has a dana 300 (don't know what it came out behind yet). i have a 74 J10 LWB, 360/TH400/QT t-case, dana 44s [i'm looking into changing the rear to a dana 60 out of a dodge W200(http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=71970)] , and planning on running 37" boggers. i do light trail riding now but am looking into getting into some hairier stuff. my questions are...

1) which case is better? (strenght, etc.)(opinions welcome)

2) which one is a passenger side drop, or did they come both ways?

3) which one would be easier to install?

4) which one will fit in between the frame rails of my jeep?

5) will it get in the way of the exhuast?

6) who else has this kind of set up in their jeep that is like mine? i would like to know how it works, what problems you ran into, etc.

i have a lot of work that i'm planning on doing to my J10 and would like to do it all at once if i can. thanks in advance for the help guys and gals.
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:37 AM
elbastardo elbastardo is offline
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How many guys on this site, have killed an np205 while wheeling?
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:57 AM
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Merc69 Merc69 is offline
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The 205 is the better of the two cases. The 300 is a great case in it's own right but the 205 is pure beef. The 300 has been swapped into various FSJ's but the usually in the later models where the swap is a bolt in.

The 205 needs a little more work. You need to find a 205 that was bolted behind the Chevy TH400. You need parts from the TH400 to make the swap. More work but well worth the effort.

On your rig there is no easy swap as the Q-trac t-case had a unique to it self spline count and bolt pattern.

Do a search on this as this subject has been discussed in depth over the years.
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:04 AM
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I'd swap in the Dana 300. It's a very straight forward swap with an adapter from Novak. It'll cost you about $450 but it comes with a new output shaft for the TH400 and all the necessary hardware to bolt the D300 up to your transmission. You should be able to reuse your existing crossmember as well. The Dana 300 may not be as strong as a NP205 but they are still very very strong. You are not running a big block or huge tires even if you do go with 37s that's nothing on a D300.

It's light, twin stick ability, cast iron, gear driven, tons of aftermarket upgrades, etc and all with a much better low range than the 205.
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Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

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Old 07-11-2007, 07:51 AM
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thanks for the info guys. i probably will go with the dana 300 seeing as the guy with the NP 205 has not getting back to me at all in the last 4 days. i know there are alot of aftermarket parts for the dana 300 too. it will probably suit my needs pretty well.

anyone else have an opinion?
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:59 AM
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I personally would go with the np205, but when you break the d300 you can always upgrade
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j20brett
I personally would go with the np205, but when you break the d300 you can always upgrade

That's great but you should list reasons why so he can make an informed decision. I fail to see how the 205 would be an upgrade for his application. Also, have you broken or heard about lot of broken Dana 300s? If so, I'd love to hear about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

"The combination of fine split tail and fine whiskey will make any man lose focus." -FSJeeper
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:18 AM
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j20brett j20brett is offline
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Sorry about that.

Strength. I know that the 300 is tough and all, but it is a half ton case.

And if he doesnt plan on beating it too hard, then i wouldnt worry about it. I plan to romp mine pretty hard in the future, so it wouldnt be worth it to me to build a case just to have it break on me somewhere.

Ive never heard of someone breaking a 205.

There was a thread floating around awhile back about the 300...ill see if i can find it.
Edit: found it...its more about np208 vs. d300, but you get the point
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=59538
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Last edited by j20brett : 07-11-2007 at 09:29 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-11-2007, 09:27 AM
FSJeeper FSJeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjeep44
That's great but you should list reasons why so he can make an informed decision. I fail to see how the 205 would be an upgrade for his application. Also, have you broken or heard about lot of broken Dana 300s? If so, I'd love to hear about it.

The only advantage the Dana 300 would have over the NP205 would be the lower 4 lo range of 2.6 to 1 versus 2 to 1.

All other areas the NP205 is vastly superior. If I were to do this swap, it would be a lot cheaper to go NP205 versus the Dana 300. Chevy T400 adapters and mainshafts for the NP205 are dirt cheap and plentiful. NP205's are cheaper and you could probably buy a whole T400/NP205 with everything needed for the swap for $200-$250. You would have to rebuild the Jeep T400 with the Chevy mainshaft and adapter, but you would have to with the $480+ Novak or AA adapter also.

This is a full size heavy truck running 37's. In my opinion the Dana 300 would not be optimum.

And yes I have seen broken Dana 300's. Look at the aftermarket for D300's for upgrade parts, it wouldn't exist if there were no demand.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:29 AM
FSJeeper FSJeeper is offline
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Also, if it were me I would keep the Qtrac versus swapping. Do the manual conversion swap and forget about it.

The Qtrac is a hell of a lot stronger than the D300 will ever dream of being even with expensive upgrades and has a good low range gearing.
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  #11  
Old 07-11-2007, 09:39 AM
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I agree with the D300 being for 1/2 tons trucks. If you get into heavy rigs you'll rearly see them pop up. I got mine for the strength of it. I twisted the rear output shaft of my D20(which i know doesn't really count here) but it was a smaller case as well. the low range in the 300 is far superior but I agree with Pascal about just swapping the old out for a newer th400/205 combo. you can always upgrade later with a nice klune or doubler set up. also, if you feel your low range sucks just get the lomax kit and drop it to 3:1. Since you're running an auto I don't think it would matter much IMO.
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I would think boxing would limit the amount the frame could flex over obstacles which I think IMO would be a bad thing. I would think you would want all the articulation possible.
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I'm not saying lockers don't improve the performance of your rig, just that they're overrated.
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  #12  
Old 07-11-2007, 09:40 AM
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thats the thing. i have done the part time conversion to my QT case and it has a 2.57:1 low range. the problem is the 4wd/2wd and shifting it low/high. i got it new from BJ's all done. when its in low range 4wd it works good. the problem is getting it in and out of it for between trail driving. my truck weighs in at just under 3100 lbs. (i've removed some things and replaced other things with lighter stuff) even with swapping to a FF dana 60 rear axle and 37" tires, i don't think that it'll add that much weight. i've seen guys wheel wranglers that weight in just as much as my j10, if not more, with a dana 300. plus i would like to have a 4:1 low range to do some crawling with.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:01 AM
FSJeeper FSJeeper is offline
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If your Qtrac is new, with the part time kit, then I would figure out why you are having problems shifting in between high and low. It must be somthing simple.

Over the years in various qtrac FSJ's I have had to back up in four low, stop, and then shift into high to get it to work smoothly and that was no big deal. Other's I just shifted it normally. Just work with it and see what works.

I would figure out the bug in the shifting and enjoy what you have.

If you swap anyway, the D300, which in my opinion is barely adequate, will have a lot more stress put through it with a 4 to 1 kit. I am fairly certain you will break it and with the auto I doubt you would need that much gearing anyway. If you do, the 3 to 1 lowrange for the NP205 would be the way to go.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:58 AM
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Thumbs up

Let me throw you a curve...

I don't dispute the strength of the 205 or TH400 but most of our rigs do not need that much beef (I have a TH400/205 to go behind my 401 for my M715 -different story). Guys have been running TH350's and 700R4's (just an OD TH350) in FSJ's for years.

Find a TF999/Dana 300 combo from a CJ; its a straight bolt-in behind any AMC engine. The 999 has a 2.74 1st gear (lowest thing outside a 700R4) and the Dana 300 has a lower low range than the NP205 or Dana 20. The TF999's are a pretty strong in stock form but can be built to take some stupid horsepower. The best part is you can have a great crawl ratio AND good highway manners (don't need super low gears). Do the math on crawl ratios and you will find for 35" tires a TF999/Dana 300 with 3.54 gears has about the same crawl ratio as a TH400/NP 205 (or Dana 20) and 4.56 gears.

I have this setup in my Commando (heavily modified with FSJ axles, 3.73 gears and 35-37" tires). With all the additional beef on the Commando it weighs as much as my Chief.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:33 AM
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Unless you're wheeling a frame with tires I see no possible way your truck weighs under 3100lbs. And if it does, all the more reason to run the D300. It would easily stand up to a rig that light with a mild V8. I'm a big fan of the 300. It's very similar to an Atlas, it's managable by one person and is very strong for what it is. The only one I've seen break was a cracked case due to a bad mount.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welchct
There are about 5 trails that actualy have section that are upwards of 85* and climb 40-50 feet at this deg.

"The combination of fine split tail and fine whiskey will make any man lose focus." -FSJeeper
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:25 PM
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Slick Willie Slick Willie is offline
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Not another D300 vs. something thread.

Get a good idea on how slow you want to go first. You have a lot of unknowns right now. Think through what size tires you're going to run for sure, what gears in the axles you're going to buy, and THEN figure out how slow you want to crawl on trails by playing with different tcase combinations.

Say in low you want to go 10 mph at 3000 rpm's instead of 16 mph. You can back calculate using axle gearing, tire size, etc. to get what tcase gearing you will need. Both tcases could be strong, it's just a matter of how much $$ you want to put into them or not.

D300's and GM 205's will both be iron cases, gear driven, passenger drop tcases. The GM 205's commonly have 30 spline front outputs and 32 spline rear outputs. D300's have 26 spline outputs. You can upgrade both cases to get 32 spline front and rear, but stock, without putting in $$ to upgrade, obviously the GM 205 outputs are better.

For the money you can put into a 3:1 205 or a 4:1 D300, you could start thinking about aftermarket tcases like Atlas or Stak. But unless you want to spend that $$$, you should try to keep the upgrades to a minimal when considering tcases. Buy one that can be good for cheap, not one that you need to put $$ into to make good.

I only have a penny, so I owe you one.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJeeper
And yes I have seen broken Dana 300's. Look at the aftermarket for D300's for upgrade parts, it wouldn't exist if there were no demand.

with that being said the same goes for the 205 there is aftermaket parts for that as well.


I am a firm believer in the d300's capability. i just installed it in my 77 cheif and will be running at least 36" tires. for the cost i am into the 300 and parts to swap it into my th400 less than the advance or novak adapters. yes thats sub 450 including d300 and th400 parts
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malodin
I am a firm believer in the d300's capability. i just installed it in my 77 cheif and will be running at least 36" tires. for the cost i am into the 300 and parts to swap it into my th400 less than the advance or novak adapters. yes thats sub 450 including d300 and th400 parts

Firm believer from what experiences? Just putting it in? I'm wondering the reason for your firm belief. I.E. if you've ran one or seen one run for a long time. Not picking on you, just getting facts.

Just to clarify, Jeep or Scout D300? And what parts to get them to mate?
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  #19  
Old 07-11-2007, 03:48 PM
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I didn't look to hard but the 3:1 205 kit is around $1,000 and the 4:1 dana 300 was $600. I'd go to pirate4x4 and search or ask there. Not that people here don't know but you'll get a lot more stories and opinions there.

Personally I'd wait and go with whatever I can get a great deal on.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:17 PM
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firm believer in the 300's capabilities both from experience and the install into my own rig. i have had several friends here with 300's in there cj's and fsj's actually only 2 one fsj and one cj but none the less the 300 is a under estimated case imho. as "it only came in half ton trucks" is the statement everyone uses on it....lots of things have only come in small packages that are used in and above what they came in. take the toyota 2.7ltr 3rzfe motor, only came toyota tacomas but will withstand 1000 hp with turbos and nos, on a bone stock motor. "but it only came in small trucks"(sorry just my opinion that because people think it only came in this thing it only should be in this thing, if that was the case people would never have put v-8's in vegas and pintos)

mine is a jeep 300. to do it on the cheap you need a th400/np208 adapter housing and output shaft(short one preferbly) and a jbconversions custom 32spline input shaft(most expensive part of the whole process) the 300 cost me 100 the shaft 175 and the np208 adapter housing and shaft was 150 as well.
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