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  #21  
Old 02-06-2001, 04:49 PM
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Kenall Kenall is offline
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scotty u asked me how many splines were on the th400 tail shaft, and there are 32.

but in the OE jeep th400/d20 arrangement, the input gear to the d20 slides over a special sleeve that itself slides over the 32 spline th400 output shaft.

the input gear to the d20 will have 29 external teeth and 15 internal splines. the sleeve will have 15 external splines and 32 internal splines.

RB has the th400 now...whatever he wood spend to purchase ANY other trany/xcase he cood use to rebuild and beef up what he has.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
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  #22  
Old 02-06-2001, 05:02 PM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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Location: Caro, Mi, USA
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The 300 sounds good, but you can't flat tow your rig with it unless it is modified to keep it lubed. You even have to flat bed it or pull a drive shaft to tow very far with a wrecker. Also D20's are a lot cheaper than 205's or 300's. Not to sure about the durability of D18's seen one ripped in 2 by a stock v6 CJ. (total abuse) Maybe in the d20 case but then ya gotta buy 2 cases.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud
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  #23  
Old 02-07-2001, 12:39 AM
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scotty scotty is offline
 
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Location: dayton,oh,45431
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ok kenall,i gotcha

so if RB decides to use a factory th400/d20 he is stuck with that combo.he cannot swap a d18 onto the factory th400 inplace of the 20 due to the fact that the factory combo uses a special input gear with 15 internal splines.no d18 application uses an input gear with 15 internal splines,and it will do you o good to bolt on the xfer if you cant swap the matching input gear.

given this new info,the 205 looks even better.you will be stuck with that,too,but youll prolly never break it.so being "stuck"
with it,rather than a 20,is prolly a better option.

RB if you cnage your mind on using the 18/20,i think youll be better off using an aftermarket kit rather than the factory stuff.

the offer will stand- if you want me to pick up and send you a 1 1/4 intermedait shaft 18,or get the bucket of d300 parts,id be happy to do so...

tho not the best option,dont forget you could use a 203-th400/203s are prolly a dime a dozen anywhere,and the part time kits for them are dit cheap,and with a part time kit,at least the chain is not working-power goes straigh thru,unlike the QT whose chain will always be working... thot id mention it,dont really know how favorable or horrible your experiences with them were.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!
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  #24  
Old 02-07-2001, 01:03 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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Man... between Scotty and Kenall my brain is oozing with great info!!!! thanks!!!

Scotty,

I had a converted 203 in a 79 Blazer... I didn't like it.... I had problems with it and being "stuck" with a 205 is a great option I won't mind living with... however I will have to keep my options open (with your offer) due to the fact I can't find a 205 worth the $$$ yet...(needing the TH400 combo, as you know).

Irbob said you can't "flat tow" a dana 300 w/o removing a shaft... I take it they (D300) don't have a neutral position...correct?



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."


'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"
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  #25  
Old 02-07-2001, 02:11 AM
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porkchop porkchop is offline
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I have to agree that if you are going with the D20 option then you need to get the aftermarket setup. The one that you are looking at that has the striped rear shaft, the housing for the adapter is cracked. The other one that is still in the wag has a different bolt pattern not to mention the the starter is on the opposite side. You will need the engine/tranny adapter to make it work.

I am on leave to be with my wife more, but I have had the chance to look at a few junk yards. Yesterday I saw a M715 with the original running engine and all other parts are original. The guy wants $3500 for it. I am talking to the wife He also has all of the metal I need to make my bumpers.

I am going to go to some more today and tomorrow. I am looking for knuckles from a early model chevy and I am looking for you a good 205. I will keep you informed.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
“Old Timer”
Check it out!

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2001, 03:13 PM
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scotty scotty is offline
 
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Location: dayton,oh,45431
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the d300 does have a neutral,and you can flat tow with the xfer in neutral for short distances. the reason you cannot go long distances is that the rear output shaft and bearings are above the oil line,and the lack of lubrication can cause very bad things,the least of which is very premature bearing failure. if youre flat towing a 300 with the driveshaft connected a long distance,its a good idea to stop and run the engine with the tranny in gear for awhile at least every 50 miles to splash some oil up there. check out the link above for tri county gear. they can have a slick little internal mod that lets you flat tow the d300 safely. its been awhile since ive read the article,but basically they add paddles to one of the oil slingers,or something,so that when you flat tow with the xfer in N and the front hubs locked the turning front shaft slings oil aroud sufficiently lubing the bearings and gears.i can dig up the article if youd like some more specifics...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2001, 03:22 PM
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Kenall Kenall is offline
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Location: Sacramento, CA.
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yes scott
but even if he had the 'normal' d20 setup with a 6internal splines input gear, he wood still be unable to convert to a d18 ezly because the d20 has a 4" opening and the d18 has 3".

on at least the OE jeep FSJ d20 th400 adaptors there is a pilot that protrudes from the rear face of the adaptor that is used much the same way as the drum pilot on a brake drum is used, to center the xcase to keep it aligned in relation to the input gear.

having this protrusion wood prevent the install of the d18 cuz of the 18s smaller opening...

i wood suspect that AAs kit that can install both the d20/18 has no such protrusion to prevent the installer he/her choice of xcases...

the d300 cant be flat towed as there is no gears within the xcase that will spin with the rotation of the driveshafts...

in the d20/18, the front driveshaft must be rotaing in order to spin the lower front slider gear which will fling oil up towards the rear output shaft bearing.

unlike the d20/18, when u shift the gears, ur shifter is actually moving an entire gear. in the d300 the shifter is only slider and small collar to engage the teeth on the gear just forward or aft of it.

think of the syncros in a manual trany and how they engage ea gear when they are moved back and forth and ur kno what this looks like.



------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2001, 03:32 PM
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Kenall Kenall is offline
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the mod that scotty talks about is to heliarc small paddles to the shift collar with in the d300. these collars look much the same as the E drive shift collar within jeeps QT xcase. ie..a groove along its outside diameter and internal splines to match that of the shaft is mates too.

because the d300 output shafts are not connected DIRECTLY with any gear, these gears cannot fling oil around the inside of the case while u flat tow. the ouput shafts are directly connected to only those shift collars, and therfore, only those litle shift collars whood spin as the jeep is flat towed.

there is no teeth on these collars in which to fling oil like on a gear so u have to 'make' some...by heliarcing some on...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
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  #29  
Old 02-07-2001, 04:23 PM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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I think you would have a really hard time finding a T400/203 combo most of those were T350/203's. The General was never real big on putting T400's in 4x4's until the late 70's and even then only in HD3/4 and 1 tons (yes there were exceptions) and good T400/205 combos are as scarce as chicken lips and very expensive unless you are very lucky. Problaby easier to find a divorced Dodge 205. Now we really opened a can o' worms!

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2001, 06:24 PM
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Kenall Kenall is offline
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if RB can only find a 205, than AA has a kit to bolt it to ANY th400 he decides on using...if he cant, AA has a kit to bolt a th400 to any d20 he might find. and he dont hve to mesh with the strange OE jeep adaptors...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'
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  #31  
Old 02-07-2001, 10:21 PM
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scotty scotty is offline
 
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kenall,kenall,kenall

yes,most d18s have the small locating hole.that is another reason why you get a d18 with the 1.25inch intermediate shaft and swap the innards into the 20 case.not only is the case alittle stronger,but voila! you have just created a large hole 18 that will directly replace any d20.as long as the tranny has either a 6 or 10 spline output shaft,so the matching d18 input gear can be swapped in plce of the d20 nput gear.

if RB decides to use a divorced dodge case,he will need to get a passenger car 2wd th400 to swap the tailshaft and housing. then hell need to make a crossmember,and a little tiny driveshaft. definately a good way to go,since he could make the case lower and the extr lenght certainly would help his front d shaft prollem. however,hes prolly not really any more likely to find one o them,either. around here ford versions pop up now and then,but they use a driver side diff. people hardly ever part out dodges in these parts(hmmm-does that insinuate that they never break or quit running?dont they even rust out like ch*vys?) i have never seen a divorced dodge case in the local trading post,you might say theyre about as scarce as chicken lips as well. i agree,tho,that would be a great way to do it...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!
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  #32  
Old 02-08-2001, 05:17 AM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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Location: Caro, Mi, USA
Posts: 2,513
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Naw, Dodge owners are as goofy and fanatical as us FSJers! Well, maybe not quite as fanatical....

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud
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  #33  
Old 02-08-2001, 07:39 AM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
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Location: Lakewood, Calif
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OK guys... I found a 205 case with the adapter plate... not sure on the output shaft of the T400 yet. guy said $400 for it all... waddya think....or should I keep lookin' I can prolly srounge around and find a T400 output shaft... but is there anything "special" on the 205 to be concerned with like the Dana 20/18...



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."


'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2001, 08:56 AM
RudyC
 
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HeHeHe .
Yup we Dodge guys are wackos.
If you can't Dodge it Ram it!
80s Ramchargers used the 205 on the 727s.
The 70s used the np203.

Have you tried Boyce Equpment? They have military trucks, tranfercases, Dana 60s.

The D20s are in my personal opinion pretty tuff and you can convert them with lower gearing. You would probably snap an axle or U joint before it comes close. The np205 only has 2 to 1 ratio.

Will the d20 bolt up to a AMC TF727?
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  #35  
Old 02-08-2001, 09:30 AM
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scotty scotty is offline
 
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ohhhhh here we go again. the dana 20 will bolt to a 727 IF a person wants to find a scout 727/d20 and swap the tailshaft and adapter into the amc tranny. much like the th400/d20,with this factory combo you are "stuck" with the d20. you cannot swap a d18 onto the scout 727 cause the scout 727/d20.like the th400/d20 uses an input gear with a goofy oddbal interl spline. in this case is 23 internal splines.

otherwise,no,the d20 will not swap onto the amc 727.it uses the circular NP pattern,while the d20 uses a "texas" shaped pattern.

RB,$400 is a fair price for a 205 with adapter and shifter. however,its not a jump on it great deal,and you will need the tailshaft. about the time you had over $400 of hard earned,nonrefundable cash,you will find a deal on th400/205 combo for $300.

if you are comfortable that this 205 wont go anywhere,id scout around alittle more. im not near as familiar with the gm stuff,but i do know that the 205 has to come from a th400,not a 350,if you want to try and bolt it up with factory parts. im reasonably sure that the post 80 205s,gm and ford, use the circular NP pattern.its just the output splnes thatmake swapping a prollem.gm can use 32,or something else,(maybe 27?),and ford uses 31.

if youre gonna attemot to mix n amtch parts,id verify that youre getting a th400 205,and make sure you check the input splines before buying a th400 tailshaft,even tho if the tailsfhat comes form a 205 combo,it should work...


at which point you will become very angry but this is how the jeep gods operate,sometimes...

one thing to your advantage is that the th400 does not have to work-it can be bad,as long as its all there-all you need is the tailshaft,and whatever hard parts may be wearing out on yours. afterward,you can throw the whle mess in the trash.

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2001, 05:23 PM
jeepbob jeepbob is offline
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Join Date: Jan 16, 2001
Location: Caro, Mi, USA
Posts: 2,513
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Hey RB, if you decied to go with a 205, BEWARE, I just did some research as there was a nagging little flag that went up so I did some digging in da ol reference pile(Wifey hates that too) and found an article in 4WOR (Sept 98) that says there is 2 diff 205's. !is the 32 spline automatic tranny and the other is a course spline manual tranny unit, which would require an AA spud shaft adapter.
Just thought I would throw another log on the fire, How about a divorced Ford D24, low range kinda sux though (1.86 to 1), but they are dirt cheap and easy to find.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2001, 11:13 PM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeepbob:
Hey RB, if you decied to go with a 205, BEWARE, I just did some research as there was a nagging little flag that went up so I did some digging in da ol reference pile(Wifey hates that too) and found an article in 4WOR (Sept 98) that says there is 2 diff 205's. !is the 32 spline automatic tranny and the other is a course spline manual tranny unit, which would require an AA spud shaft adapter.
Just thought I would throw another log on the fire, How about a divorced Ford D24, low range kinda sux though (1.86 to 1), but they are dirt cheap and easy to find.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks!!! I found out when I started researching. I believe there are 3... 10 spline, 27 spline and 32 spline. 32 spline is the one I am looking for... uses stock adapter... the others require a kit, but will work. It also came in 2 bolt patterns... circular and figure 8. The 27 spline, fig 8 patteren was attached to a TH350 from 71-79 (factory), The 10 spline Fig 8 pattern was originally attched to the SM465 (3-Speed stick) from 71-84 and the one I NEED (from what I can tell) should be the 32 spline fig 8 pattern used from 79-85 with at TH400. Now it could be the later 205 which is 32 spline with the circular pattern, but not sure (I doubt it)... this one has a shorter depth and was alos mounted to the SM465.

see...I have done some looking/research ... AA had a good breakdown.

I may go look at the 205 Saturday.. but really wanted to wait til I found more.... I have a tendancy to be impulsive....

I gotta tell you all that having Bryant (Porkchop) close by to "talk Jeep" is GREAT... He is always thinking of ways to help you out.... he even scouts the yards for me without me askin' him to.....he mormally knows what I am hunting for...

A BIG SHOUT to Bryant... THANKS!!!

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."


'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"
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  #38  
Old 02-09-2001, 04:06 PM
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porkchop porkchop is offline
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Location: Corpus Christi, TX 78414
Posts: 8,125
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Hey, Todd, you are welcome and glade I can help. I always feel like that guy in prison that can get you what you need just give me some time.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
“Old Timer”
Check it out!

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.
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  #39  
Old 02-09-2001, 11:48 PM
River Beast River Beast is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2000
Location: Lakewood, Calif
Posts: 11,642
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porkchop:
Hey, Todd, you are welcome and glade I can help. I always feel like that guy in prison that can get you what you need just give me some time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... your my "Connection"



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: riverbeast@earthlink.net
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."


'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"
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