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  #1  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:40 PM
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brielly brielly is offline
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Join Date: Dec 30, 2002
Location: Toms River, NJ
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Tailgate Window Trouble

So I thought I was the master of the failing rear tailgate window but apparently not. This one has me stumped. I'm getting 12 volts at the brown and tan wires near the window motor when working the front switch. The rear switch doesn't work and I even bypassed it just to be safe. The motor works when jumped directly to a battery but when I plug it back into the harness I get nothing except that the wires get very hot. What's up with that? Is the motor possibly on the way out or is there something else I'm overlooking?
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2013, 08:19 PM
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svining svining is offline
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Which rear switch?

Mine likes to drop the plug off the side safety switch, I'm guessing that's what you bypassed? The other switch is the key insert switch in the tailgate, either could be bad, At least you know your motor is fine so trouble shooting should not be too hard. Make sure none of the wires are chafed or shorted at the junction of the body and tailgate in left lower corner of gate.






Quote:
Originally Posted by brielly
So I thought I was the master of the failing rear tailgate window but apparently not. This one has me stumped. I'm getting 12 volts at the brown and tan wires near the window motor when working the front switch. The rear switch doesn't work and I even bypassed it just to be safe. The motor works when jumped directly to a battery but when I plug it back into the harness I get nothing except that the wires get very hot. What's up with that? Is the motor possibly on the way out or is there something else I'm overlooking?
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  #3  
Old 07-11-2013, 05:35 AM
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brielly brielly is offline
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Join Date: Dec 30, 2002
Location: Toms River, NJ
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The safety switch was bypassed a long time a go. I also bypassed the rear tailgate switch as well. I just don't understand how the wires leading right to the motor could have 12 volts when pushing up and down on the font switch but the power never makes it to the window motor. The fact that the wires are getting hot right where they connect to the motors wires has me concerned. I'm thinking of running new wires from the front switch just in case the original wires are bad.
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For Sale Custom built reproduction Rhino Grilles http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...24#post1676924PM me for details or email rrielly@verizon.net

1982 Cherokee Chief 258 6 cyl, T-5, NP208, mopar mpfi, hydroboost brakes.

1983 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 258 6cyl*SOLD*
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  #4  
Old 07-13-2013, 08:19 PM
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pcoplin pcoplin is offline
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The wires are probably all green from corrosion. I bet if you cut the insulation at the hinge area it'll be all green. It'll cause too much resistance and not enough current. Mine has done the same. I'll have to pull the carpet and run all new wires sometime.
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2013, 09:04 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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It sounds like the switch has failed. The wires run under the rig in the frame.

The switch are double pole double throw they tend to get the contacts get welded together.

Once you really master it will be the day you jerk it out & install a relay system.
Tailgate alignment could also be making it hot. I gutted my 80 & all though the wires were in fine shape they are simply to small for the job. the switch system is some of the worst engineering there is.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2013, 07:08 AM
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Rich88 Rich88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serehill
....Once you really master it will be the day you jerk it out & install a relay system...

Guess I didn't get the memo on this one. Could you elaborate? Sounds interesting.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2013, 08:37 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich88
Guess I didn't get the memo on this one. Could you elaborate? Sounds interesting.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=163645

They are mostly designed for those that want a nice piece or can't build them.

Unfortunately the system simply a bad design the switches being used as a contact control system especially at 40 years old are not a dependable system. I studied these systems & worked on repairs they were all band-aids on a bullet wounds. The wiring & engineering is also a joke. Understanding the way the ground works is difficult & if you do then you will realize it's a bad design. Whether you use mine or develop your own it's the way to go. The link is not only to get you to buy one but to give you the idea if you can build your own cool. The remote is really cool. There's enough information there for a catalyst to get going. I have to tell you development & working with 3 different board members to build the prototypes took me a year. Mostly because it was a side job. It works mine is 4 years old. The first prototype is 2 years old & still working. They were designed & built by request from some users.
2 of them have gone into late 50's & early 60's station wagons. These were members rigs we developed by request. This set up replaces everything but the motor & allows the safety switch to be used or eliminated. Since the wire is a major part of the problem it replaces all that. Not because it's corroded but because it's too small. One of the Biggest issues with the existing systems is the switches are not motor rated. In my development of these I found out with a perfect system because of the switches & wiring the motor voltage would go as low as 5 volts when going up. also the safety switch is in series & in no way can carry the current needed to get full voltage to the motors. These motors are really well built if the tailgate is set up properly & the more gets proper power keep you fingers out of the way.

Yeah I know there are folks that have problems with me selling them. The key to that statement is they have the problem. The cost is mostly the cost of building these there not any great profits & I don't buy cheap parts which control most of the cost .
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 07-14-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serehill

Cute. Found two mistakes (non-critical) on the schematic though: You forgot to label the "Moral Compass" at the upper left, and the bypass wire on the 240 AC source should be "Install this if you're a wimp" (Not omit).

Anyway, I happen to possess the technology and cleaned up/improved my stock wiring last year (Yes...solder-heavy), so I won't be needing a kit, but for providing a clearly-needed service for the electron-challenged.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2013, 09:22 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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no problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich88
Cute. Found two mistakes (non-critical) on the schematic though: You forgot to label the "Moral Compass" at the upper left, and the bypass wire on the 240 AC source should be "Install this if you're a wimp" (Not omit).


Anyway, I happen to possess the technology and cleaned up/improved my stock wiring last year (Yes...solder-heavy), so I won't be needing a kit, but for providing a clearly-needed service for the electron-challenged.





Yeah that was for fun not technical accuracy the point has been missed many times. I've gotten tons of PM's on that.


The switches & band aids are very popular.

The intent was to improve the AMC engineered challenged. The secondary benefit was collateral advantage.

Not fixing the badly engineered doesn't work with my tag line. Fixing it until the next break wasn't an option.

Sorry brielly,
I know this has digressed & this thread was about struggling with the rear window system. I was trying to stay on point but I don't do that well LOL. There are so many threads about this same exact issue. It really is a bad design & no matter how much you try to repair the existing system is just has another problem.. In the existing form the more you get fix the more you get to work on it. I started cussing them in the 70's & finally did something about it in the 2000's. I can't tell you how many I thought I repaired. There's been tons of threads about that exact subject. People have jerked them out & bought manual systems because they were so frustrated with them. I have the right to talk about the band aids because I did enough of them. I finally fixed mine. I believe that is your point. It was corrected finally by starting over with a much better design. Looking at better engineered models basically Mercedes & the new ford truck that the back window rolls down. It was obvious in this case you can't fix badly engineered without better engineering from a completely redesigned system.
Like the ammeter, the headlight switch, 8.8 Volt upgrade to the coil, & other issues these things have. Repairing has not been the final solution for those either. Consistency in the way you approach these deals make the difference in whether you work on them or drive them. Cheap fixes that keep repeating themselves is not cheap or a fix at all.\
Points to ponder.
Either the ground is faulting, The window track is not aligned correctly OR the very tough motor is failing from years of low amperage & voltage. The motors do go bad. Not knowing the changes & fixes there is a possibility that loose ground connection via the front switch is causing this. Not enough input for real analysis.
I would get a voltage /amp meter out & research the motor. Has it got strong voltage when being operated. what is the amperage.
It should be between 12 & 15 amps going up. What is the temp of the motor when this is happening?
What is the temperature of the switch? Is it the + wires that are getting hot or the grounds? Is it both?
If you have the safety switch bypassed have you tried opening the tailgate & seeing if it opens OK in that position?
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 07-14-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2013, 02:40 PM
brielly's Avatar
brielly brielly is offline
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Location: Toms River, NJ
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Yup the switch was bad. Last time this happened I got no voltage when testing the switch, this time it appeared to be working as I was getting 12v at the switch and rear wires. I took the front switch apart and cleaned the contacts. I also took the plastic piece that moves the contacts from my defroster switch and swapped it in to the window switch since that part was pretty worn down. I removed the factory connector from the front switch, ran a new ground, and new wires to the tailgate. Now any future problems will be the motor gone bad or the switch going out again. I did the same thing on my old truck and it worked well for years. Yes its a band-aid but it works.

Serehill I'd love to buy one of your systems or make one but money is tight at the moment. I'd love a simple system that bypasses the rear switch in the tailgate and just operates from a rocker switch on the dash.
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For Sale Custom built reproduction Rhino Grilles http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...24#post1676924PM me for details or email rrielly@verizon.net

1982 Cherokee Chief 258 6 cyl, T-5, NP208, mopar mpfi, hydroboost brakes.

1983 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 258 6cyl*SOLD*

Last edited by brielly : 07-15-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-15-2013, 03:34 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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you have a PM from me

Check it out.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-03-2013, 11:58 AM
brielly's Avatar
brielly brielly is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2002
Location: Toms River, NJ
Posts: 1,077
My new to me switch lasted about one day. My final solution was a new 30 amp rocker switch and 2 bosch style relays. Now it works great and I can get replacement parts anytime I want for cheap. I have all new wiring going from my new switch to the tailgate motor so hopefully I now I have a reliable system that will work for years.
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For Sale Custom built reproduction Rhino Grilles http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...24#post1676924PM me for details or email rrielly@verizon.net

1982 Cherokee Chief 258 6 cyl, T-5, NP208, mopar mpfi, hydroboost brakes.

1983 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 258 6cyl*SOLD*
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