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Old 02-19-2006, 02:41 AM
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rustywag rustywag is offline
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I just picked up Waggy #2. It's an 88 with NO RUST! So, I'm gonna move my lift and tires from my current rustywag over.
But, on rustywag I did the whole Edelbrock, TFI, MSD, Flowmaster thing and I must say I wasn't really impressed with the power. Yes, I know, 33" tires with 3:31's isn't the ideal combination for such a heavy truck but I expected more power. I want the new non-rustywag to have a little more oomph and I keep thinking that the AMC 360 just isn't the answer. I will be using this to tow my CJ occasionally and it will be driven daily on the street otherwise. My present wag does get around 13 MPG but is quite a slug, especially off the line. I keep hearing about what great torque motors AMC's are supposed to be but even with the mod's this one wont even bark a tire from a dead stop. Towing 5000# or so up hills would be out of the question.
I know gears would help but I keep thinking about my previous 360 Dodge pickup with similar sized tires and 3:54's that would easily tow 8,000#'s all day long and still get the same 13 MPG. I don't expect 400 ft.lbs. and 22 MPG but reasonable towing ability isn't too much to ask, is it? Or should I just accept the fact that the ancient design of the AMC 360 cant be overcome even with a carb, cam, intake, and ignition upgraded to todays standards and just swap in a MOPAR and be done with it. I'd prefer to keep my Jeep all Jeep but my previous experience with a 360 AMC buildup hasn't impressed me.
I do have a Pro-Jection set up I bought from a board member here a while back that may help a bit but I don't think TBI will be that much different power-wise than a decent carb. I know other cam options are out there but they all seem to be slanted towards more high RPM gains thank the "performer" cam I used in rustywag which isn't really what I need.

I will not swap in a Chevy, so dont even mention it.
I would really like to keep this AMC but I need someone to convince me that a signifigantly better parts combination exists for low RPM performance than the Edelbrock stuff I've already tried.

Thanks for your input
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:03 AM
case case is offline
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I have built a few engines (all different kinds) and have been very happy with the results on all except one, an AMC 360. I had major trouble getting good parts (machineing flaws) once it was done it ran great and since then I have built another and it went good because of the education I recieved on the first one. On a wag with a 727 I would go mopar defenantly. I dont thank it would run better or stronger than an AMC but the parts are cheep and easy to get and they are hard to screw up. Other than that you can get a magnum 318 or 360 FI motor cheep out of a wrecked truck or Jeep and the dodge 727 will bolt to your tcase and the magnum.
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:29 AM
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case,
Thats exactly what I'm thinking. However, I would probably want to use a 5.9 and a 518 auto to get the lower 1st gear and overdrive. I think it would bolt up to my existing 229 but I need to do a bit of research 1st.
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78 CJ7 258 Clifford cam, intake, Holley 390 4.0 Head/T-176/D-300 4" superlift & 33's
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:33 AM
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It is all in the gearing. I built a 650ft.lb. torque monster Caddy 529 stroker for my brothers K5 Blazer and after swaping in 1 tons, 4.11's and 38.5 swampers, he was really bummed! What was he compairing it too? A worn out 305 with 35's and 3.42's. A set of 4.56's later and all is well with the universe. First gear in the 727 is 2.45, that sucks! Maybe look into a 700R4 (3.07 first) or a manual trans swap.

[ February 19, 2006, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Chevelleguy ]
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:35 AM
case case is offline
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I am prety sure the od trans will bolt up also. I dont know if you are wanting to run fi or not but the magnum 360 will make 300 horse in stock form with a good carb, the fi system on the magnum engines is ok but could be improved, it may be a programing issue I dont know but I do know that the manifold has sealing issues.
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:39 AM
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yep, it's all in the gearing. those 3.31s will give good performance with 29 inch tires.
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:57 AM
david13 david13 is offline
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ok mike if i go with 33,s or 35,s on my bild up what gear should i use on my 86 wagon stock 360

[ February 19, 2006, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: david 13 ]
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Old 02-19-2006, 04:21 AM
79 widetrack 79 widetrack is offline
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I say stay with the 360, a properly built amc 360 with the right gears can be a monster, again when done right.
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Old 02-19-2006, 04:27 AM
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rustywagoneers_com rustywagoneers_com is offline
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the non-magnum dodge combustion chamber is a turd, and the 360 dodge is no better an engine than the 360. i dissasemlbed a driving 360 in a J10... not a screamer, but it still ran and drove, it had the upper ring land broken off 2 or 3 pistons.. (it has been almost 10 yrs, i cannot remember now)

with a mild rebuild, and careful thought given to the cam and compression ratio, the 360 will do anything you want to do, for a long long time..
i would run the iron 2 barrel intake and a 2 barrel and iron exhaust, the cam and compression are the keys.

pm if you want long boring dissertations on it! but i can get what i need out of the 360, and if i cannot, then the only swap is to diesel.

peace, Dave
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Old 02-19-2006, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by david 13:
ok mike if i go with 33,s or 35,s on my bild up what gear should i use on my 86 wagon stock 360
dave, that depends on if the rig is mostly on road, or mostly offroad.
for 33s, go with 4.10s. they'll be nice on road and off. 4.10s and 35s will work to keep your rpms down at highway speed, but, not as quick off the line. 4.56s and 35s would be nice off the line and great offroad. but, you'll have to stay at a lower speed when on the highway to keep your rpms down.
i installed the 4.10s with the intention of getting 33s. but, the 36s came along cheap. i will probably get 33s when the time comes.
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Old 02-19-2006, 04:47 AM
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I have looked at this issue as well. I decided on the AMC 401. Go get a good core and build it right. Use quality parts and you will have no more money in it than you would in a rebuilt Mopar.

I actually considered a Mopar crate engine. With all the extra headache and expense of the swap, it just made better sense to do the 401 right and bolt it in.

You do have to find a machine shop that has experience with the AMC engines. I was lucky. Portland Engine Rebuilders, Portland, Oregon, has done many AMC's and some for local racers. They knew how to do it right.
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Old 02-19-2006, 07:49 AM
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I have never even seen a 401. I'm sure that were one available it cost way too much. As far as gears, I know steep would be better. I'm comparing the AMC 360 in my 87 Grand Wagoneer to an 88 Dodge 360 in a 3/4 ton utility body 4X4 full of tools and equipment. I know the Dodge was at least 1000# heavier than the Wagoneer. The Dodge had 3:54's versus the 3:31's in the Wag. I think its fair to say that the barely better gears in the Dodge were more than offset by the weight difference. Wag has 33X9.50's the Dodge had 33X12.50's. Wagoneer has Edelbrock carb,cam, intake TFI & MSD. Dodge had stock Quadrajet. Dodge would tow a bobcat plus attachments on a Heavy-duty construction trailer all over with nary a complaint. Wag has knowhere near the bottom end grunt! This is not about weather dodge is better or not. My question is can the AMC be modified at a reasonable cost to equal the stock performance of the Dodge. The gears in the vehicles I am comparing are effectively the same. I know 6:54's would really boost the low speed performance, I just want to know if the AMC with crappy gears can be as good as a Dodge with crappy gears.My own experience with the Edelbrock package says no. I want to hear from someone that can tell me yes and how. Don't just say "AMC is great!" Tell me how to make mine great too. What if anything exists besides the Edelbrock stuff that hasn't done the job.
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97 Ram 1500 4X4
78 CJ7 258 Clifford cam, intake, Holley 390 4.0 Head/T-176/D-300 4" superlift & 33's
01 Tahoe for the Wife (soon to be my DD)
79 Dodge Lil Red Express
11 JK Rusty's lift and 35's (Wifes new ride)
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:14 AM
79 widetrack 79 widetrack is offline
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Rustywag the differences in the engines boils down to how was each one built? I've seen 360 dodges that have insane power and 360 amc engine with insane power, i've also seen both of the same engines that were better used as boat anchors. Honestly you can make both a great powerhouse if done right. Both of my amc 360s one in a 79 cherokee and one in a 89 grand wagoneer perform differently but the same block heads and carb. Different gears of course and much different power levels but essentially the same basis of engine.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:20 AM
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Oh, good lord.

Another My daddy is stronger than your daddy thread.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:58 AM
case case is offline
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I say go with the dodge. The small block dodge is hard to beat. If you go with an AMC when your experience tells you that you should go dodge the first problem you run into you wont be happy with your decision.
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:58 AM
GWlover GWlover is offline
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Can you transplant a late model Dodge engine into, say, a Grand Wagoneer...If so, what tranny and transfer case will work??? This may be the way to go...How much modifing is required??? How hard is it to hook up the Fuel Injection, computer, harness and all??? Curious, has anyone done this before?????????
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Old 02-19-2006, 11:34 AM
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yep, DA...

rustywag, sounds like you got your heart set on the dodge swap, go for it and have fun

peace, Dave
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Old 02-19-2006, 11:52 AM
krob725 krob725 is offline
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I put a Dodge 360 in one, Ed carb, nice cam, good rebuild, 3" exhaust,etc. 727 trans with B&M trans pack, deep pan, etc.
The thing was fast...and...it ....got...17-18 MPG!!!
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Old 02-19-2006, 12:13 PM
8379qtj10 8379qtj10 is offline
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What about a Cummins 24 valve turbo diesel??

I have a 1979 frame with fabed up mounts but it's a super tight fit.
My father is a Cummins dealer so I had the parts hook-up.
Still it's a lot of work...but think of the POWER!!
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Old 02-19-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8379qtj10:
What about a Cummins 24 valve turbo diesel??

I have a 1979 frame with fabed up mounts but it's a super tight fit.
My father is a Cummins dealer so I had the parts hook-up.
Still it's a lot of work...but think of the POWER!!
Now there's a Mopar swap I could live with. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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