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Old 03-31-2017, 01:26 AM
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More power for my wagon

I've got a 86 GW and it runs good but I know they don't have much HP. From what I seen they have 144 hp. If I put a 4bbl carb on to my old waggy will I gain any more power? Can a use a 2 to 4 adapter plate? I want to get the truck avenger. And later get the edelbrock 4bbl manifold

There is a area where I go that isn't a high clearance road or even a 4wd road It's a graded dirt road but it is very steep. The only way I can get up the road is to put it I to 4 wheel low in transfer case and 1 st gear in tranny I have a automatic. This is a problem.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:33 AM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Not sure why that (using low) is a problem. But, if you don't want to be in low, then the answer will be more torque at the wheels in the normal rpm range.

A few ways to get there IMO.
1. Drivetrain: Gear down, especially if using larger tha stock tires. The Wagons of this era generally came geared more for highway (2.9 something diffs). Change to numerically higher diffs.

2. Engine: Develop more torque in the 600 - 2800 rpm range. Spend a lot of time and effort optimizing the timing and fuel for efficiency and power. AMC had to balance emmissions reduction with fuel economy so there should be a little to gain. Unfortunately, the 360 was always a smogger so there is no 1965 arrangement to copy.

A 4 bbl carb is helpful for developing power as the rpms climb. Its going to do very little in the normal street and low rpm. Small gains in theory will be possible at street rpms with a spreadbore carb because the small primary throttles will be further open and therefore more efficient (thermodynamicly). However that's theoretical. Fuel distribution is a big factor as the best an engine can do is always limited to the worst cylinder.

I think what would really be needed is a complete build package using cam and compression to get the torque in the rpm range you want.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:55 AM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
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86 360's were no fireball but it should get the job done. check your timing, and advance it a bit from what is called for and see if it helps.


A 4v carb on a low compression engine is a waste of time. if you can't tune up what you have to your satisfaction it's time to build a new engine with more performance .
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdbill
If I put a 4bbl carb on to my old waggy will I gain any more power? Can a use a 2 to 4 adapter plate? I want to get the truck avenger. And later get the edelbrock 4bbl manifold

Yes a 4bbl carb will net you an increase in power, but do the 4bbl intake @ same time. The 470 truck avenger is a decent carb for a stockish engine. Mileage WILL suffer some with the truck avenger.

Is altitude a factor here with the hill? How steep are we talking?

What gearing is in the Jeep? The 2.73's tend to make these struggle. My '90 has them and it kinda sucks in comparison to my '88 w/ 3.31's.
When I had 31" tires on my '90 w/ the 2.73's it was pretty sluggish on hills.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:29 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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That stretch of graded dirt should be doable in near any vehicle w/o 4wheel low.
Sounds like your 360 is just worn and tired. Rather than throwing money on a carb and manifold, I'd spend the time and money diagnosing/fixing the problem not the symptom. Stuffing more fuel and air into a tired motor that the rings and valves can't handle is not going to make it more powerful. You might get very lucky and it's just a plugged up cat? I'd start with a dry and wet compression test and see where you're at before buying modifications.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:05 PM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Well that's exactly thing Joe, more air and fuel can't just be stuffed in. Well not without spooling up a turbo or supercharger and that's back to doing just what he doen't want to do, revving the motor.
So yea, your advice is prolly a good place to start, as is 440s about timing.
Babywag - I've run a Holley 750 back to back with secondaries connected and disconnected on the dyno. They really don't make a difference until over 3000 rpm. Obviously every engine and situation will be different, but this guy wants to putt-putt up hill at half throttle assuming everything is working right now, he's going to have to change gearing or set the engine up to be a torque monster.
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Last edited by nograin : 03-31-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 06:26 AM
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If that 360 is extremely low on power, it is likely not that the engine is worn out, but that something is grossly out of tune. As others have said, it could be something as simple as timing, a clogged cat, stretched timing chain, carburetor may need a rebuild...
And as others have said too, a 4 barrel carburetor only adds air/fuel on the top end. Your problem is somewhere else.
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:14 AM
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I disagree and say a 4bbl intake/carb is a decent upgrade, makes for a nice runner when tuned properly. Using a vacuum secondary carb you'd be surprised how easy it is to get into the secondaries. Even a stock engine benefits from the swap. Under heavy load, even @ low rpm, your going to have more air/fuel available.

The TA 470 is slightly larger than a stock MC 4300 4bbl carb. I have no idea on cfm rating of MC 4350, but guessing maybe a 600?

Many folks have swapped, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that didn't think it was a good swap.
Even adding a Holley 500cfm 2bbl makes a very noticeable difference on stocker, but mileage suffers some.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
I disagree and say a 4bbl intake/carb is a decent upgrade, makes for a nice runner when tuned properly. Using a vacuum secondary carb you'd be surprised how easy it is to get into the secondaries. Even a stock engine benefits from the swap. Under heavy load, even @ low rpm, your going to have more air/fuel available.

Absolutely, but a 2bbl 360 should be able to climb steep driveways with ease. I think something else is happening in OP's truck.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
Absolutely, but a 2bbl 360 should be able to climb steep driveways with ease. I think something else is happening in OP's truck.

I think the OP needs to clarify this "very steep road". Also what gearing/tire size he's running.
He states that it runs fine, so I am assuming that it does. He wasn't asking about driveability problems etc.

If say it's lifted w/ big fan tires, and 2.73 gearing then that's a diff. story.
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Old 04-01-2017, 06:31 PM
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It has new exhaust from the cat back. It has 31x10.5 tires. Tag on diff reads 3 31. Carb has been rebuilt. I advanced the timing for max power. I know I said hill it is a mountain in Arizona near sunflower it is a old mining road and it keeps going up and and up and up. It bogs down and will stop running and die if I don't put it into the lowest gears in my jeep.
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Old 04-01-2017, 06:42 PM
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Is elevation a factor here? What is starting elevation and elevation @ top/end?
If carb is jetted too rich, it'll lose power as elevation increases.
It'll need more timing as elevation increases as well.

If this is the stock 2150 sounds like altitude compensator dealio is not functional?
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
Is elevation a factor here? What is starting elevation and elevation @ top/end?
If carb is jetted too rich, it'll lose power as elevation increases.
It'll need more timing as elevation increases as well.

If this is the stock 2150 sounds like altitude compensator dealio is not functional?

It may. But not sure it's about 4500 to 6400 feet in elevation in 4 miles. My carb doesn't have the compensator. I just think it's a gutless beast great for camping not mountain climbing.
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78 AMC Jeep Cherokee t18 tranny Dana 20 TC 360 4 bbl carb
86 AMC Jeep Grand Wagoneer HEI/TFI, aluminum radiator, kool flow water pump 360/727/208

Last edited by wdbill : 04-01-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdbill
It may. But not sure it's about 4500 to 6400 feet in elevation in 4 miles. My carb doesn't have the compensator. I just think it's a gutless beast great for camping not mountain climbing.

Sounds like carb + elevation.
An '86 should have a 2150 w/ compensator.
What's on it now?
Could try stepping down a size or two in jetting.
May help. That and bump timing up ~7* @ 4500-5000'

When I ran a carb mine hated anything above 4500'-up.
Had to adjust (add) timing or it became a gutless wonder.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:58 AM
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I believe that one of the PO had changed out the the original carb.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdbill
I believe that one of the PO had changed out the the original carb.

So track down a 2150 carb, rebuild & jet it for your elevation, and give the road another shot.
Probably under $100 if you rebuild it yourself.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:14 PM
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What carb has been swapped to your 86? IMHO a 2000' change in elevation over a 4 mile stretch of road is not "very steep". A Buick station wagon with the AT in LO gear should be able to pull that. Also 6400' is not extreme elevation that needs modifications from standard tuning. I used to work mineral exploration(geology) for a mining company and running stock 4x4's never had any debilitating bogging/low power issues till about 7500', Mostly working 8000-10000 plus. If it would be just a couple or few days job, I'd advance the timing 2* for every 1000' above 7000'. If a long term job I'd rejet for the duration. An easy/quick test if you think you're running to rich is remove the air filter. That'll lean out the mix and run better at upper elevations. I still do the air filter remove thing on my trucks/bikes if I'm losing power on road trips pulling 8000 plus CO passes. Your issue is you current carb set-up/tune or a tired motor issue. Possibly both. Curious how many miles on your carb swapped 360? I had a 73 360(110-115,000 miles?) that still ran good but was showing signs of low power for a V8 with 4.09 gears. I put a new OEM spec timing set in it and it came alive. Not a zoom zoom power house but sure freshened up performance. Point being, I still don't think spending lotsa money on a bigger carb and manifold combo is going to cure your issue and possibly make it worse. Diagnose before you revert to Shotgun Maintenance. AKA: just guessing and replacing everything that catches a BB. Buying parts you don't need gets expensive quickly. Best of luck.
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Old 04-02-2017, 05:31 PM
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jeep disagrees with you on tuning.
They issued service bulletins regarding operation above 4000'
They MC2150 is also rich out of the gate, and only gets worse with altitude.

http://oljeep.com/gw/mr253_IS/MR253-IS-1E.pdf

http://oljeep.com/gw/mr253_IS/MR253-IS-13E.pdf

+7 degrees added to initial timing for 4000' or above
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