International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-13-2014, 08:55 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
To Lift Or Not To Lift...

OK, I've found my Wide Track (J-Series actually) axles, and I'll be picking them up next week (I was supposed to pick them up today, be I was preempted by the weather. I'm going in for sinus surgery tomorrow, so I cannot go this weekend...). In any case, as the weather should be getting a bit warmer soon, that means I will be back on my project... I hope...

It IS going to get warmer soon, right?

To the point, I have the J-series axles, and I want to run Yokohama Geolandar A/T-S tires. I am thinking of running LT315/75R16 which have a height of 33.1" according to TireRack.com

I like the look of this Cherokee:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coryd55
1976 Cherokee WT
No lift
33x12.5 tires



And this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutrageGIS


I will be converting to "Wide Track" fenders and quarters. Basically, I'll have a Wide Track Wagoneer. To get the above look/utility, and I won't be doing any heavy off roading, just the occasional dirt road, farmer's field, sort of thing, so no need for radical flexing and all that, should I go with the stock replacement springs, or the 2" lift?

As usual, thoughts, suggestions, and general directions as to where I should pick up my hand basket, and which direction I need to crank the handle for the trip "down" are greatly appreciated!
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-14-2014, 12:50 AM
blazer3664's Avatar
blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Mar 08, 2009
Location: Fayette county Illinois
Posts: 976
Front axle out of a J-truck will be set up for SOA. Thats 6-7" of lift right there unless you cut the pads and move them back under the axle.

Also, not 100% sure, I am thinking the J-truck axles are actually just a bit wider yet than the normal "wide track" Wag/Chero axles. Wanting to say 3".

Is your Wag 2 door or 4 door?

Not much help, but its a start.

Jim
__________________
modified flares, removable top, OBA w/200psi tank,
LQ4, 4L80e,NWF doubler w/upside down 203
SOA w/ D44s F+R for now
H1 wheels+tires (cut), hydroboost brakes
custom shackle flip
W/F150 springs
-----Coming Soon-----
snorkels,
OX'd D60/14B-FF
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:09 AM
fulsizjeep's Avatar
fulsizjeep fulsizjeep is offline
Señor Jackhead
 
Join Date: Aug 21, 2002
Location: Jubilee Jeeps.SWCO
Posts: 22,278
74-88 Jtrucks were SUA on the front just like the Cherks and Waggys.
__________________
Flint
Ran when parked.
http://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s with a few Evil Twin & TT's Fabworks mods
76 401 Wag, 77 401 Wag, 77 401 J20
http://eviltwinfab.com http://www.ttsfabworks.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:57 AM
OutrageGIS's Avatar
OutrageGIS OutrageGIS is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Feb 26, 2011
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 334
I believe the cherokees came with 2" more lift than same year wagoneers from the factory, they run 31" and some 32" tires with no problem. If you want to fit 33" under your wag I would think you would want 4" all around of spring lift. Others may have more experience with this...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:19 AM
addicted's Avatar
addicted addicted is offline
Big Meanie
 
Join Date: Dec 11, 2004
Location: Byron, MI
Posts: 4,876
The rear axle is wider on the J-trucks. It should just fit if you open the wheel wells up to the same specs as a W/T Cherokee. You will need to relocate the spring perches on the rear axle as well. Not a bolt in deal. The J-trucks have a wider rear frame for better stability when loaded.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Ristow
i bet it was Simon....
he's such big meanie that way...
please don't tell him i said that....
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-14-2014, 08:31 AM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Yes, I realize I will need to weld the spring perches in the correct places.

My Wagoneer is a 4-door (1989), but will be a Wide Track when I get done, including all the Wide Track flares.

But it is looking like a Cherokee sits higher from the factory (anyone know this to be true?), so then the 2" is probably the way to go. 4" seems like a lot.

Maybe the 3" Rough Country? I know it tends to be a bit stiffer, but I was thinking I could disassemble the spring packs and put Teflon between the leaves.

Hmm....
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:04 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,047
your rear axle will be wider than the cherokee W/T axle. look at pics of my cherokee with the J20 axles. the rear wheels are at the edge of the flares.

you'll want to lift it,or it's going to look just like a stock,squatty W/T cherokee.


there is no quick easy way to make rough lift spring ride nice. if you want plush you WILL pay for it. (softride/skyjacker).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-14-2014, 10:07 AM
addicted's Avatar
addicted addicted is offline
Big Meanie
 
Join Date: Dec 11, 2004
Location: Byron, MI
Posts: 4,876
2" to clear 33's and it will look just right after the settling that will occur.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Ristow
i bet it was Simon....
he's such big meanie that way...
please don't tell him i said that....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-14-2014, 11:41 AM
Tinkerjeep's Avatar
Tinkerjeep Tinkerjeep is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 01, 2009
Location: Redneck-populated Flyover Country, USA
Posts: 3,662
The front body mount on a 1970s Wag frame are ON the top of the front frame rail. 1970s J-trucks have a raised pedestal there. This alone allows for a stock 1" body lift. I don't know if later Jeeps from the 80s changed this, check yours. If the front body-mount rubber puck sits directly on the top of the frame-rail...you will need more body lift. Let me check my 1981 Cherk WT...be back in a bit....

(5 minutes later) yep. same as 1970s Wagoneer.

Last edited by Tinkerjeep : 02-14-2014 at 11:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-14-2014, 03:50 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
your rear axle will be wider than the cherokee W/T axle. look at pics of my cherokee with the J20 axles. the rear wheels are at the edge of the flares.

you'll want to lift it,or it's going to look just like a stock,squatty W/T cherokee.


there is no quick easy way to make rough lift spring ride nice. if you want plush you WILL pay for it. (softride/skyjacker).



I understand what you mean concerning cost. Frankly, it isn't cost that makes me consider modifying the Rough Country springs, it's that they are a stiffer spring, and thus should offer better on street handling. Installing Teflon between the springs will dramatically change the harshness of the spring however!

Since this is a daily driver, I want reasonable handling, and reasonable off road capabilities, a compromise I know, but one that I am willing to make to have a good, all-around vehicle which will be stable at 80mph, and fairly capable in snow or getting across a field or old dirt road where the creeks run across the road rather than the other way round.

This is the sort of look I am going for, maybe a touch higher. I say "look," but what I really mean is height. If I need to widen the Cherokee W/T flares to accomplish this, I have no problem in doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepskater433
Vehicle: My old 1979 WT Cherokee
Tire Size and Make: 33/12.50/15 BFG MTs
Rim Size and Make: 15x10 Pro Comp Alloy Rims
How Much Lift: none
What Type of Lift: none
Did you had to trim your Wheel Openings: No
Any Rub: A little at full turn



Ristow, do you have a link to a pic of your Cherokee? I cannot seem to find it on here.
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott

Last edited by ProTouring442 : 02-14-2014 at 03:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:01 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,047
Quote:
I understand what you mean concerning cost. Frankly, it isn't cost that makes me consider modifying the Rough Country springs, it's that they are a stiffer spring, and thus should offer better on street handling. Installing Teflon between the springs will dramatically change the harshness of the spring however!


i disagree. a buckboard ride is worse. rather than soak up the bump,they react to it,throwing the car,and the occupants around.

tune the suspension with tighter shocks,but spring it to manage the road.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showp...4&postcount=34
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:40 PM
fulsizjeep's Avatar
fulsizjeep fulsizjeep is offline
Señor Jackhead
 
Join Date: Aug 21, 2002
Location: Jubilee Jeeps.SWCO
Posts: 22,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutrageGIS
I believe the cherokees came with 2" more lift than same year wagoneers from the factory, they run 31" and some 32" tires with no problem. If you want to fit 33" under your wag I would think you would want 4" all around of spring lift. Others may have more experience with this...
The Wide Track vehicles fit 31s on 15x8 wheels because the body has the WT fenders, not because of more lift. There is no more lift on a Cherokee than a Wagoneer from the factory.

If you want 33x12.5x15 to clear on a narrow track, you need at least 6" lift and even then there will probably be minor trimming. The fender wells are not nearly as large as the Wide Tracks. I have run 33s for a long time on a NT w/4" lift but a lot of the fenders had to be trimmed to fit without rubbing the body skin.
__________________
Flint
Ran when parked.
http://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s with a few Evil Twin & TT's Fabworks mods
76 401 Wag, 77 401 Wag, 77 401 J20
http://eviltwinfab.com http://www.ttsfabworks.com

Last edited by fulsizjeep : 02-14-2014 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:36 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
i disagree. a buckboard ride is worse. rather than soak up the bump,they react to it,throwing the car,and the occupants around.

tune the suspension with tighter shocks,but spring it to manage the road.

We are close to agreement...

There are tow issues with leaf springs, the initial crash if getting the spring to move, and the actual stiffness of the spring.

The initial crash is due to having to overcome the friction of the spring-pack itself, while the stiffness is the actual spring rate.

The Rough Country seems to rely on a higher rate to provide lift, while the softer options seem to rely on a larger arch and a softer rate. For handling, I want a stiffer rate (the old adage that any suspension will work as long as you don't let is has some merit), but this will restrict its ability to flex.

The softer options will allow for better flex, but at the cost of hauling capacity (not that I plan on hauling the world), and handling (roll stiffness).

By putting the liners between the springs, especially if you take the time to smoothen the spring surfaces, you eliminate the stiction issue that causes the "crash."

So far, this is the direction I am leaning... with the knowledge I may be tossing the money to the wind! But if all my research is correct, it should work well.
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:38 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,047
i have rough country springs on my black j20. it has a plow on it. when i lift the plow,the springs hardly give. they are STIFF.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-14-2014, 05:48 PM
WHSII's Avatar
WHSII WHSII is offline
Hack-Priss
 
Join Date: Feb 06, 2010
Location: Frankfort, KY
Posts: 1,804
Hello Bill,

Some of the J10's came with 31" tires stock. As far as I have seen, the springs from a Cherokee and a J10 are the same. AMC did not do too much specialization work to these rigs. They were just placed different as to the width.

I do not know that the 33" tires will rub or not, but I would guess they would be fine if not flexing greatly. I am thinking of interior access. You seem to be, as me crossing the line to "golden years" I am 6"4" and my J10 with 31's is a perfect height. Just a point to consider.
__________________
WH

Dad's J10, Honcho, 1980 Sport Side
Build http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=118144

https://picasaweb.google.com/113072766039246994279/JeepJ10Honcho

Herbina 1987 Grand Wagoneer




Founding Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:34 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by WHSII
Hello Bill,

Some of the J10's came with 31" tires stock. As far as I have seen, the springs from a Cherokee and a J10 are the same. AMC did not do too much specialization work to these rigs. They were just placed different as to the width.

I do not know that the 33" tires will rub or not, but I would guess they would be fine if not flexing greatly. I am thinking of interior access. You seem to be, as me crossing the line to "golden years" I am 6"4" and my J10 with 31's is a perfect height. Just a point to consider.

I think you just called me old!

For the record, I am only 45. Any pics that show an old dude are of my father. On the other hand, I do need to be mindful of my wife's abilities. She is 5'7", but has Multiple Sclerosis. Still, climbing up and down is easier than climbing down into her little SLK230, her daily driver.

Nonetheless, if I read you correctly, I good used set of J series springs might mike a good alternative, yes?
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:39 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
i have rough country springs on my black j20. it has a plow on it. when i lift the plow,the springs hardly give. they are STIFF.

I wonder if the BJ's "Stock height" springs are universal to all years, or if they are specific to each year (for example, '79-'80 Wagoneers being 1-1/2" higher than other years). I'll have to call and see. If not, maybe the BJ's 2" is the way to go...

Thinking, thinking, thinking...
__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:58 PM
fulsizjeep's Avatar
fulsizjeep fulsizjeep is offline
Señor Jackhead
 
Join Date: Aug 21, 2002
Location: Jubilee Jeeps.SWCO
Posts: 22,278
On replacement springs, the same spring is typically used for 74-91 fronts and again for 76-91 rears. From the factory, there were two different front springs depending on plow attachment or not. The heavier spring could also be ordered on a vehicle. The rears were different depending on GVW for the Cherks, Wags and Jtrucks. I am not familiar with the post mount style.

I can personally attest that front 4" springs from Warn, Rancho and Rough Country are very stiff.
__________________
Flint
Ran when parked.
http://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s with a few Evil Twin & TT's Fabworks mods
76 401 Wag, 77 401 Wag, 77 401 J20
http://eviltwinfab.com http://www.ttsfabworks.com
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-14-2014, 06:59 PM
Revhendo's Avatar
Revhendo Revhendo is offline
Grease Monkey
 
Join Date: Sep 11, 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ristow
i disagree. a buckboard ride is worse. rather than soak up the bump,they react to it,throwing the car,and the occupants around.

tune the suspension with tighter shocks,but spring it to manage the road.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showp...4&postcount=34

I'm gonna side with the big guy on this one. Rough Country Springs are stiff. I have the three inchers on my Waggy. They also already have the pads installed on them. I would strongly urge you to look into Skyjackers or BJ's for better riding springs and dial in your ride with shocks and swaybars. Also keep the track bars, but adjust them for the difference in height. (You may even look into a drop bracket for the frame end).

Oh, and a drop pitman arm if you get above the 3" mark.
__________________
Rev.

OK, who put the magnet under my moral compass?

1988 Grand Wagoneer. Going for the ultimate fishing rig.
I named her Tinkerbell after my cat. She always demands my attention and whenever I show her love, I come away bloody.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-14-2014, 07:14 PM
ProTouring442's Avatar
ProTouring442 ProTouring442 is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Mar 15, 2011
Location: Harriman, TN
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revhendo
I'm gonna side with the big guy on this one. Rough Country Springs are stiff. I have the three inchers on my Waggy. They also already have the pads installed on them. I would strongly urge you to look into Skyjackers or BJ's for better riding springs and dial in your ride with shocks and swaybars. Also keep the track bars, but adjust them for the difference in height. (You may even look into a drop bracket for the frame end).

Oh, and a drop pitman arm if you get above the 3" mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulsizjeep
On replacement springs, the same spring is typically used for 74-91 fronts and again for 76-91 rears. From the factory, there were two different front springs depending on plow attachment or not. The heavier spring could also be ordered on a vehicle. The rears were different depending on GVW for the Cherks, Wags and Jtrucks. I am not familiar with the post mount style.

I can personally attest that front 4" springs from Warn, Rancho and Rough Country are very stiff.


I definitely don't want to go over 3"... I am thinking a set of used J10 springs might be the ticket. I can always add a leaf if they are too low, but based on what I am seeing, they should be spot on.

__________________
"There's just no use arguing with stupid people." -Thomas P. Elliott

Last edited by ProTouring442 : 02-14-2014 at 07:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
4" lift springs + bj's lift shackles = smoother ride vs. stock shackles? high desert hauler Off-Road FSJ Tech 2 07-26-2013 07:33 PM
Lift Questions Kirk Off-Road FSJ Tech 7 01-30-2013 07:36 PM
Family Wagon Lift Question MoppTopp General FSJ Tech 13 09-19-2007 08:11 PM
I want 5" lift...how to do it??? rockcandy General FSJ Tech 4 02-22-2004 02:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner