What do you think an 5.3 would do to the value of a FSJ?

[rang-a-stang]

I have been mulling a few engine swaps because I am just not getting the performance out of my 401 that I want. It is running OK and I am sure I could throw more speed parts at it but I want daily driver-able/reliable. My Jeep is not an original 401 rig so keeping it "original" is irrelevant.

I know I could do a 454 swap for pretty darn cheap. I think I could get a lot more performance out of a 454 than I could this 401 but it's heavier and would not really gain me much in reliability or MPG so it's not totally worth the effort.

I could do a Hemi but I don't think it would be as cost efficient as an LS at this point.

The only down side I see to an LS swap for me would be value. I think I could sell my 401 and EFI stuff to pay for the entire LS swap (so it would basically be a zero sum game, which I am fine with) but I am worried it would drop the value of my rig when compared to a 401. I would plan to get a Chevy patterned TH400 and swap the guts with mine so I would not need any expensive adapters. I kind of think a quality LS swap would be more valuable than my 401? What do you think?

Why does this matter? Because my teenage son is driving it. He will most probably wreck it sometime in the next 2 years. When he does, I want to get the most $$ for it for my next FSJ. If he does not wreck it, I am going to chassis swap in a couple years anyway so the 401 will go away then, anyway.

Thoughts?

[Full Size Jeeper]

First thing I would do is get real honest with yourself about what you want out of this thing. To me, it sounds like you want to go hunting rice burners and 5.0's, and maybe surprise a few. I would talk with a few of the guys in the performance forum so they could give you and idea of what kind of HP you will need to get what you are looking for. A guess from me, would be 500HP. A quick search says a stock 5.3 has 320hp. What do you think you have now? I think mine has a little more power than yours and it ain't going to beat a car in a race.
You watched the video of my launch and it's not that impressive. And that was when it was still light, no doors, glass, or interior. No doubt the LS will be the way to go for more power, but you are going to need a lot to get it to be fast.

[wiley-moeracing]

You will not break even on the engine swap, you could get a 5.3 for free and still not break even. By the time you figure in the computers, wiring harness programing, fuel system, mounts exhaust and the list goes on and on you will have a modern motor you can no longer work on with out a chevy tech and equipment. The old 401 can be repaired with the most basic of tools and info and can be made to work very well with some money and knowledge. Now if you want to spend a lot more dollars you can move up to 6.0 ls with a big cam and super charger/ turbo charger and make tons of horsepower and not be drivable or reliable. Rebuild the 401 with the correct parts, cam choice and mpfi and you will have a great motor and be more driver friendly that will tow with great torque, and yes the fuel mileage will suck but you are driving a brick around....

[joe]

You're not getting the performance from your 401 so this is all about possible future resale value? Generally good condition bone stock FSJ's are worth more than modified(IMHO) Even though the 401 has been swapped into your 79, for the AMC/Jeep fan at least it's still in the AMC/Jeep family so future resale value with a swapped 401 or LS is hard to predict. I would explore "properly" building up and tuning the 401. Depending on what axle ratios you have...if stock explore gear ratio swaps. You could could put a 500hp motor in that 4500# steel barn and w/o proper gearing to get that power to the pavement you'll never be happy with the performance.

[Crankyolman]

Sometimes I regret not upgrading to an LS. At the time my engine went bad I had the opportunity to buy a wrecked LS1 corvette with 50,000 miles for less money than my engine rebuild cost and as much as I like my truck being as original as I can keep it sometimes I think the swap would have been the better choice.



On that note I was looking through Mecums past sales and I believe I am seeing a trend where the LS engine greatly increases the value of these things over just a nice FSJ or even a fully restored one with an AMC engine.



That said, what exactly is value? Trends change quickly so really you have to ask yourself what will make you and your son happy and do that. Personally I don't want my son to have the ability to go fast and just the thought of it brings back the memory of the night my closest friend called me to tell me his son had just died in a street race. That was a tough call to get and a tougher one for him to make so it's something to think about when you are talking about a 16 year old and more power.

[Wagoneer Taylor]

A big one here for me is, do you plan on selling it? and, If you do is it going to be years and years from now?

If the goal is not to sell it, then I agree with what alot of people say, do what will make you happy. Secondly, if you plan on selling it WAY down the line then current trends almost don't matter because they may be different by that time. As someone already mentioned the market changes fast.

That being said I can only imagine even if the current FSJ trend goes down, a nice one will still hold value. At that point you are just looking for the right buyer. One who either does or does not want originality.

Heres were my opinion sets in .
I typically look for a vehicle (FSJ or not) that is as stock as possible, simply because you never know how or what the PO did.
Whenever I see LS swap done by someone in their garage at home I cringe to think what possible shortcuts they took, or hidden gremlins I may find.
Now that is just me, and I am sure if someone like yourself did the swap and documented it like you most likely will, my mind may be put at ease. Just something to think about when trying to sell a "modified" vehicle.

Now the fun bit, I'd love to see a Hemi swap over an LS any day. But I can not deny the affordability and aftermarket prowess of the LS. Having never done either swap, just between the two I feel like the LS swap would be easier and less expensive just due to the before mentioned items.
I feel like if you are looking for something with power to surprise people it would take a lot more money then might be worth it, to do it in a FSJ. Obviously it can be done and would be one heck of a cool rig!! But may take some drivability out of the rig like a previous person mentioned.

I think I am just re-stating what others have said at this point, so there is my two cents. Whatever you decide to do Marc is the right decision as long as you make it for your reasons! Good Luck

[JeepJeepster]

Depends on who is looking at it. If I were looking for an FSJ, again, I would pass if it had anything besides an AMC in it. It would be a hard pass if it had anything GM in it.

[stonehengeheels]

I have not done one but I bought my 360 from a guy put in an LS and my mechanic said the swap went well and looks like it was designed to be there.

[FleetFox]

Just going to throw this out there Rang, but it seemed like that EFI install caused so many more headaches than it solved for you. Would it maybe make sense to trying swapping back to performance carburetor before throwing the baby out with the bath water? I know they get a bad rep from folks because like 5% of people actually spend time tuning them right. The adjustments and mods available for a Holley 4150 are nearly endless...and only 1 wire if you go with a choke. And yes, I believe you could recoup your investment on the EFI as well. Just a thought.

disclaimer, I am not a fan of the "LS swap it" movement. Although I drive an LS every day and have had several that have gone 200k. Mostly I hate computers and extra wires in my fun cars. I'm old, I know.

2 cents

Fleet Fox

[rws31]

454 is the best choice.

But seriously, if your son is going to drive it for a couple years I wouldn't touch it. I might actually detune it a little. You could get a better idea of what you might want to do if it doesn't get messed up. Might also be some incentive for the youngster to keep it in good shape if he is bribed with a 454 swap later.

As far as value goes, I could care less about what the value is of mine. It could have more value to you and your son working on it together or just building it the way you want and getting the satisfaction of having an awesome Jeep. It isn't going to go up in value a lot no matter which engine swap you do.

Engine wise, that is going to be a tough choice when you do decide to do a swap. The brute force of a 454 is hard to pass up and don't be surprised when it gets better mpg than any stock 360/401. An LS would be the easiest choice but everybody is doing it along with the Hemi nowadays. But with more power comes stronger running gear.

Whichever engine you go with pleeease please do not leave in the 3 spd. Changing the guts out of a 400 into another one is just plain silly. An overdrive is a must. No adapters will be needed with a 700r4.

And I'm with FleetFox on the EFI. If it gives you more trouble than it's worth, chunk it. Put a 390 2 barrel with a restrictor plate under it till the boy proves he can keep his foot off of the floor.

[FSJunkie]

The people paying $100,000 for these Jeeps do no seem to even notice what is under the hood so long as it makes the Jeep move.

[rang-a-stang]

Wow! A lot of great points in here. Thanks everyone for responding. All my responses are going to sound like my mind is made up, but it’s not. I will be wrenching on my rig over the next week and if I can start to trust my build a little more and enjoy driving it, I may just stick with what I got. I hate super long posts like this with no pictures so shame on me for the novel here.

First thing I would do is get real honest with yourself about what you want out of this thing. … A guess from me, would be 500HP. …. What do you think you have now? I think mine has a little more power than yours and it ain't going to beat a car in a race….

Here is where I am. This 401 makes my Cherokee feel about the same torqueniess as my wife’s Pathfinder. A lot punchier than it was before but nothing special. I want 2 wheel burnouts with 33” tires. Right now I get one wheel and it’s pretty unimpressive. If I had a locker or LSD back there, I would only be able to break them loose with my xfer case in low or on wet/dirty pavement. I also want to be able to rev it higher. I guess my original post does not really mention reliability, which is a major driver. More on that below. I think I have about 300hp now but it’s hard to tell. I still don’t like my oil pressure and don’t trust this engine long term (this is on me for it being my first engine build). One other thing that is slightly laying on me, I will have to smog it in June. It would be easier for me to get a smog ref sticker with an LS than to get my current configuration through smog. I was hoping I would be able to road trip it to Idaho last fall and get it registered at my house up there but I don’t trust this engine to make it that trip so I will have to CA smog it one more time. I think I am looking more for 400hp than 500.

You will not break even on the engine swap, you could get a 5.3 for free and still not break even. By the time you figure in the computers, wiring harness programing, fuel system, mounts exhaust and the list goes on and on you will have a modern motor you can no longer work on with out a chevy tech and equipment. The old 401 can be repaired with the most basic of tools and info and can be made to work very well with some money and knowledge. Now if you want to spend a lot more dollars you can move up to 6.0 ls with a big cam and super charger/ turbo charger and make tons of horsepower and not be drivable or reliable. Rebuild the 401 with the correct parts, cam choice and mpfi and you will have a great motor and be more driver friendly that will tow with great torque, and yes the fuel mileage will suck but you are driving a brick around....

I hear you, Tim. I am plumbed for EFI already, have an exhaust that can be manipulated to work with the stock LS manifolds, a radiator/fan that will work with either, and tuning capability for either. The cost of harnesses and computers has dropped A LOT lately. I think the skill set for a traditional carb’ed 401 and an LS are different. I think my skill set would be better toward the LS than the Carb. I would expect to pay about $1k for a stock moderately high mileage 6.0 and another $1k for harness and computer upgrades. $400 for trans swap. Then another $1k for the various other things (relays, fluids, mounts, etc.).
My current 401 has a lot of desirable stuff on it (Forged pistons, balanced/blueprinted bottom end, ported heads, Harland Sharp rockers, Edelbrock intake, bulltear serptine kit, CS144 alt, Comp Cams cam and valve train, the TBI which includes timing control and electric fan control, Bluetooth computer interface, and receipts for everything) so I think I could sell it for about $3.5K here in SoCal. LS would get a rattle can rebuild, stock exhaust manifolds (for smog), and a basic tune up, buts that’s it.

You're not getting the performance from your 401 so this is all about possible future resale value? Generally good condition bone stock FSJ's are worth more than modified(IMHO) Even though the 401 has been swapped into your 79, for the AMC/Jeep fan at least it's still in the AMC/Jeep family so future resale value with a swapped 401 or LS is hard to predict. I would explore "properly" building up and tuning the 401. Depending on what axle ratios you have...if stock explore gear ratio swaps. You could could put a 500hp motor in that 4500# steel barn and w/o proper gearing to get that power to the pavement you'll never be happy with the performance.

Not so much resale value but value of it if it’s totaled. My engine has been built recently (by me but I am not saying that is a good thing) with what I believe to be a good build. I generally return everything I do on my rig to stock (other than the engine). My suspension is stock other than shackle reversal and a 1.5" block in the back. Steering is stock other than XJ midshaft. Brakes are stock other than dual diaphragm. Body is stock other than the front bumper that was cut in half by the previous owner. Interior is stock (including radio). My truck is no collector and would not be bought/valued by someone looking to add a FSJ to their collection. It would be bought by a dude that thinks FSJs are kind of cool and wants to drive and mod one. But again, I am not looking to sell…just to drive and enjoy it until I can swap the chassis.

Sometimes I regret not upgrading to an LS. At the time my engine went bad I had the opportunity to buy a wrecked LS1 corvette with 50,000 miles for less money than my engine rebuild cost and as much as I like my truck being as original as I can keep it sometimes I think the swap would have been the better choice.
On that note I was looking through Mecums past sales and I believe I am seeing a trend where the LS engine greatly increases the value of these things over just a nice FSJ or even a fully restored one with an AMC engine.
That said, what exactly is value? Trends change quickly so really you have to ask yourself what will make you and your son happy and do that. Personally I don't want my son to have the ability to go fast and just the thought of it brings back the memory of the night my closest friend called me to tell me his son had just died in a street race. That was a tough call to get and a tougher one for him to make so it's something to think about when you are talking about a 16 year old and more power.

Good point! I am not looking to build up the LS. Would just stick the stock 6.0 in and get it through smog, then just drive it until I can swap chassis’s in Idaho. My son is a pretty conservative dude and I would trust him with a little more power.

A big one here for me is, do you plan on selling it? and, If you do is it going to be years and years from now?...
I typically look for a vehicle (FSJ or not) that is as stock as possible, simply because you never know how or what the PO did.
Whenever I see LS swap done by someone in their garage at home I cringe to think what possible shortcuts they took, or hidden gremlins I may find.…

I hear you, Taylor. I do plan to Hemi it in Idaho (2.5 years from now) but for now, the aftermarket support and affordability of an LS is what is enticing me. I am tired of dreading driving my truck because the engine is not reliable enough for me to drive it everyday. I also think it would be much easier to sell and get decent money for my 401 down here in SoCal than I will in PacNorWest so I kind of want to sell it down here. Swapping my TH400 case with a Chevy bolt patterned case and doing a quick internal parts swap so I can bolt my QT to it would keep costs way down. The power is part of it (honestly, a big part) but really it’s reliability and tune ability, too. I also think when I get to swap the chassis, it would be easier to sell an LS’ed Chassis than a 401 chassis but maybe I am wrong.

Depends on who is looking at it. If I were looking for an FSJ, again, I would pass if it had anything besides an AMC in it. It would be a hard pass if it had anything GM in it.

You would pass on a 1970 Wago with a Buick in it?! HAHAHA!! Just teasing; I know what you mean. I am not so worried about mixing makes on my rig. Heck, it already has a GM trans and steering and Ford Ignition and wiring!

I have not done one but I bought my 360 from a guy put in an LS and my mechanic said the swap went well and looks like it was designed to be there.

Cool! How is the driveability? If I had a 360, we would not be having this discussion, my engine would have swapped 2 years ago.

[rang-a-stang]

Just going to throw this out there Rang, but it seemed like that EFI install caused so many more headaches than it solved for you. Would it maybe make sense to trying swapping back to performance carburetor before throwing the baby out with the bath water? I know they get a bad rep from folks because like 5% of people actually spend time tuning them right. The adjustments and mods available for a Holley 4150 are nearly endless...and only 1 wire if you go with a choke. And yes, I believe you could recoup your investment on the EFI as well. Just a thought.
disclaimer, I am not a fan of the "LS swap it" movement. Although I drive an LS every day and have had several that have gone 200k. Mostly I hate computers and extra wires in my fun cars. I'm old, I know.…

You are ABSOLUTELY correct! (EFI install was a headache) but like I said above, I am also not confident in my 401 (long block) building ability and do not trust it very much at this point. I was not a huge LS swap fan either, especially since Hemi prices have come down so much, but for the cost you just can’t beat them. They are stupid reliable, stupid cheap, and the support for them is through the roof.

454 is the best choice.
But seriously, if your son is going to drive it for a couple years I wouldn't touch it. I might actually detune it a little. You could get a better idea of what you might want to do if it doesn't get messed up. Might also be some incentive for the youngster to keep it in good shape if he is bribed with a 454 swap later.
As far as value goes, I could care less about what the value is of mine. It could have more value to you and your son working on it together or just building it the way you want and getting the satisfaction of having an awesome Jeep. It isn't going to go up in value a lot no matter which engine swap you do.
Engine wise, that is going to be a tough choice when you do decide to do a swap. The brute force of a 454 is hard to pass up and don't be surprised when it gets better mpg than any stock 360/401. An LS would be the easiest choice but everybody is doing it along with the Hemi nowadays. But with more power comes stronger running gear.
Whichever engine you go with pleeease please do not leave in the 3 spd. Changing the guts out of a 400 into another one is just plain silly. An overdrive is a must. No adapters will be needed with a 700r4.
And I'm with FleetFox on the EFI. If it gives you more trouble than it's worth, chunk it. Put a 390 2 barrel with a restrictor plate under it till the boy proves he can keep his foot off of the floor.

Copy that! Honestly, seeing how much you are driving/towing with yours (along with other posts on here) is kind of what is driving me this way. The 3 speed would stay because it would be all about doing it well but cheap. If I swap trans’ I also need new drive shafts, speedo pickups, linkages, cross member. Etc. If I keep a TH400, I would buy a Chevy bolt pattern case for about $100, a rebuild kit for about $200, and $100 in fluids and cleaners. My guts go in the Chevy case, along with my output shaft and trans adapter. Fresh trans and LS bolt in=$400. Long term, I plan to swap the chassis in Idaho with a Ram 1500 so I can get a 5 or 8 speed auto, 4 wheel discs, Hemi, and ABS.

The people paying $100,000 for these Jeeps do no seem to even notice what is under the hood so long as it makes the Jeep move.

HAHAHAHAHA!! SOOO true! My rig is no $100k rig, that is for sure! Honestly, I think it’s MAYBE worth $7k as is? MAYBE? Realistically, probably more like $5k?

[Mikel]

I would bet good money that the bulk of your problem is not the engine, but the rest of the drivetrain. Modern vehicles have lower axle gear ratios, with OD transmissions with tightly spaced gears, high stall lock-up torque converters... And lower first gears (4.03 for the 6L80, 2.8:1 for the AW4, vs 2.48 for the TH400). That's how modern vehicles with small engines feel peppy.


In my opinion, you are going to replace the one part of your powertrain that is the least outdated. I bet a AW4 would give you better bang for the buck.

[rws31]

I would bet good money that the bulk of your problem is not the engine, but the rest of the drivetrain. Modern vehicles have lower axle gear ratios, with OD transmissions with tightly spaced gears, high stall lock-up torque converters... And lower first gears (4.03 for the 6L80, 2.8:1 for the AW4, vs 2.48 for the TH400). That's how modern vehicles with small engines feel peppy.


In my opinion, you are going to replace the one part of your powertrain that is the least outdated. I bet a AW4 would give you better bang for the buck.

I agree. If your plans are to do complete swap in a couple years, I would only spend what I needed to make it dependable. If the EFI is troublesome, toss it. Ignition system intermittent? My HEI in the Wag is untouched from the late 80's.

The whole smog thing does complicate things.

I'd save my pennies for a procharger after the chassis swap.