Grand Wagoneer Cummins 4BT swap

[Jjkage84]

Been a few more days....... Any info yet? Congrats by the way sounds like an outstanding upgrade. Looking forward to maybe adventuring that direction myself in the future.

X10

I talked with Arron a few days ago about mine as well and yours was the one he was referencing when he said bs just got done with one very similar. I'll be sending mine to him one day as well, I cravethe power and mpg's like no other!

[msh227]

It has been a few months, what is the status of your rig. How has it been treating you? Any info on MPG, etc??

[olllllo]

It has been a few months, what is the status of your rig. How has it been treating you? Any info on MPG, etc??

Overall I am still very thrilled with it. Since the time of this post, the rig has changed quite a bit. I have done a 3/4 ton axle swap (soa/shackle flip) with full-width Ford F250 axles and am running 37" military Goodyears. Even with that setup, I am typically seeing between 22-23 MPG, which is remarkable in my opinion. I have put about 6000 miles on it including a 3000 mile family road trip in July pulling my popup camper, culminating in meeting up with IFSJA folks for a week in Ouray for the FSJ Invasion. The only issue I had was the fact that I lost my NP229 between Durango and Silverton on the highway. I ended up junkyard shopping for a 208 on day, and did the swap in the KOA that night. In all, I came home with an upgrade.

That said, I have had a number of issues to resolve along the way, which I will do my best to describe here.

First, within about 3 weeks of getting it all back together, the first problem I experienced was a burst of the tranny cooler lines, which were rubber. Thankfully I was at a stoplight when it happened, could smell it, and pulled over into a gas station with an OReilly across the street. I was able to replace the hoses on site, fill it back up and make it home without issue. However, the next day, I couldn't get the tranny out of first gear. The thing that is interesting is that I didn't allow the tranny to run dry, and after repairing it, it made about a 15 mile drive home without issue. I don't know the direct correlation here, but ultimately I had to have my 727 rebuilt. Additionally, the tranny cooler hard lines were replaced with steel and there has been no further issue in that area.

Secondly, the 4BT is a vibration machine! If you have the opportunity, I would recommend using liquid filled engine mounts (google J-18569-10). Otherwise, every loose bolt in your rig will fall out. One place that this occurred - and the liquid mounts wouldn't have had any effect - was on the engine itself. I hadn't realized it but the bottom bold on the injector pump bracket had fallen out, as did one of my engine mount bolts. With the missing pump bracket bolt, there was a lot of vibration movement in the fuel lines and I started popping them one after another. I think I went through 2 injector lines, two return lines, and one boost line before I got to the bottom of it with Aaron Reeve's generous assistance. Once that bolt was replaced, with copious amounts of thread locker, it has ceased to be a problem. It is an important factor to keep in mind though!

The only other engine-related bug I have had was really brought to light on the road trip. When I got up into high mountain passes pulling my camper, my EGTs shot through the roof. I was really having to feather the throttle to keep under 1200* at some points, which was far higher than I was comfortable with. It actually took me 2 hours to get over Monarch pass as the engine was borderline overheating. I took it to the 4btswaps forum (here: http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...untain-passes). I have a few projects ahead of me based on this.
1) I am going to order a set of 50hp injectors from (http://www.tndieselpower.com/). Aaron, who did my install, has always felt my injectors were a bit suspect. If you look waaaaay up this thread you will see a picture of a wet cylinder when he took it apart, which is likely due to a bad injector.
2) Build a fan shroud. Under all driving conditions to date even with 60-some-odd days over 100* here in Dallas, my engine temp is always sitting just a hair over the blue on the Grand Wag gauge. However, the way that it spiked on those passes I suspect that a shroud would have helped.

Another issue related to the above and which is a fairly critical issue at hand is related to the waste gate on the turbo. When I took it on its first wheeling trip and was trying like hell to get up and over a ledge, from outside the rig, Aaron noticed that the waste gate was releasing way too early. Since that time, and definitely this past week, that problem has gotten significantly worse. At this point I have to get into pretty high RPMs before I can even hear the turbo trying to spin up at all. I don't have a boost gauge on it yet, so I can't tell what I am building, but I can almost assure you that I am building hardly any pressure at all. I am considering a temporary solution of welding the waste gate and seeing where it sits. I kind of suspect that this wasted gate issue is directly involved in the issue I described towing above.

Overall? The rig is awesome. Anyone who goes into a project of this magnitude that thinks they are getting a "new car" out of it are fooling themselves, but if you can put up with the issues that result and persevere, it's a dang cool swap to do.

Here is a pic from us leaving Palo Duro Canyon heading up to CO.

[Mikel]

Secondly, the 4BT is a vibration machine! If you have the opportunity, I would recommend using liquid filled engine mounts (google J-18569-10). Otherwise, every loose bolt in your rig will fall out. One place that this occurred - and the liquid mounts wouldn't have had any effect - was on the engine itself. I hadn't realized it but the bottom bold on the injector pump bracket had fallen out, as did one of my engine mount bolts.

That's interesting... My 4BT, once the idle was raised a bit, is silky smooth. It vibrated horribly before that

[olllllo]

That's interesting... My 4BT, once the idle was raised a bit, is silky smooth. It vibrated horribly before that

One thing I would do differently is to use a standard transmission. A huge part of the vibe is due to being in gear at a stop. It just doesn't like that! On my "someday" list is an NV4500.

[msh227]

Sounds like an interesting summer!

Did you do the axle swap because the D44's couldn't handle the weight?

I am leaning towards the 4bt because it seems like there it won't be such a tight fit as with the 6bt and I'm hoping my D44's would be able to handle the weight, so I can save money on an axle swap.

[olllllo]

Sounds like an interesting summer!

Did you do the axle swap because the D44's couldn't handle the weight?

I am leaning towards the 4bt because it seems like there it won't be such a tight fit as with the 6bt and I'm hoping my D44's would be able to handle the weight, so I can save money on an axle swap.

Ha! Yes it was.

No, the axle swap had nothing to do with weight. The weight of the 4BT is only around 745 while the 360 is right at 600. The difference is no more than a small passenger riding with me. If you look back up this thread to 3/31 you will see my post about blowing up spider gears. I replaced the spider gears with a locker, but unfortunately that wasn't the end of my rear axle issues. I had a low vibe coming from the rear that just got worse and worse. I checked the fluid a month or so later and it was very metallic looking as whatever was going wrong was slowly shredding apart. I used that issue as an excuse to justify a full axle swap, so I drove to OK and picked up a 78 F250 rolling chassis for 500 bucks and used it as a donor. I replaced every single part on the axles aside from the shafts and inner gears/seals, and used a full high steer setup using 1.5" .250" wall DOM and Parts Mike high steer arms.

[thinder]

You have gone nuts with this thing!! Really Cool! Mine is sitting in the drive way because I havent put my AC in yet and Texas is too hot for that business.

A couple of notes on vibration, motor m ount geometry can affect that quite a bit, thats part of the reason for the factory mounts design, its a natural frequency kinda thing. Next, a higher stall speed Conververter would help, and could put more torque to the ground for you. (although kersploding a couple of D44s sounds like torque is no problem.)

[grimgaunt]

One thing I would do differently is to use a standard transmission. A huge part of the vibe is due to being in gear at a stop. It just doesn't like that! On my "someday" list is an NV4500.

I think you'll find that the vibe persists even w/a stick shift. Its the inherent unbalanced 4BT doing its thing. I have driven the exact same truck with a 4BT and then after with a 6BT (the 4BT is sitting in a corner of the shop now) and the difference is night and day. The six, even though more difficult to shoehorn into the wag and heavier, is 10x the powerplant the 4BT is.

Also, my friend took the truck up to Moab once with the 4BT and twice with the 6BT - the 4BT easily got 25 mpg over the tunnel (10,000 ft) and back, but when towing got only 19 and the temps were running high.
The 6BT doesnt skip a beat and gets 26 regardless.

[olllllo]

Well, I suppose it is time to revisit this thread and offer some updates. I have now been driving the rig for about a year, so I have a pretty good handle on the likes/don't likes. Generally, I *LOVE* it, so any negative comments I make need to be considered from that perspective. But there are a few.

First off, I am not loving the TF727, and have decided that I am going to put in an NV4500 (more on that shortly). My reasons are this:

• Being robbed of HP by the auto tranny. I have read that it can rob you of up to 30% HP which seems on the high side to me, but in any case, I don't want any going to waste
• No overdrive. I really didn't think this was going to be an issue, especially running 37" tires, but my top cruising speed is really only about 60-65mph.
• When at a stop in D, the engine really fights with the transmission and kind of bogs down creating significant vibes. I typically throw it in N at stop lights
• Shift points - they aren't bad, and most of the time I am fine in D, but I find that many times I am tempted to - and do - manually shift the gears.

I am also ready for more beef out of the engine. Aaron opted to leave it stock when we put it in as a "control" baseline so that we had data to compare against. Now that we have that picture, it's time to turn it up! Additionally, I am not making enough boost to get serious life out of the HX35 turbo. I should be seeing somewhere around 25lbs and even when I am really getting into it, I never see more than about 15lbs.




So after collecting parts, the rig is about to go back down to Aaron Reeves Garage for some kickass updates. Here are the things that are about to go down:

• Replace TF727/NP208 with Dodge NV4500 DHD and Ford NP205 with and Advance Adapters adapter to mate the two (pn: 50-0220). I actually got the NP205 from the donor F250 that I pulled my axles from and just procrastinated selling it. I never really considered putting it in my rig. Procrastination pays. The only parts I still have to acquire, are the A.A. parts, and will be ordering today from whoever gives me the best quote. I am looking forward to the LOW low, and actually getting a 0.75 5th gear!
• Replace stock injectors with rebuilt 50HP injectors from tndieselpower.com. This is going to provide a pretty good kick in the seat.
• Replace stock VE pump governor spring with a 3200 RPM governor spring. (The stock limiter is like 2400 I think?)
• Replace old clogged stock radiator with new aluminum 2 core replacement
• Pull off turbo, weld up the waste gate and add a pop-off valve.
• Replace current springs with 2.5" lift springs (in combination with my SOA/shackle flip that's on there). I had 6" springs that made it way too tall. I bastardized a leaf pack after Ouray last year, and one side of it has just given out. I got a set of Rancho 2.5" fronts and Superlift 2.5" rears.
• Air helper springs for the rear for towing. I bought a 24' camper this year and it really drops the rear end of the rig. I want to take the stress of the new springs.
• Steering stabilizer for the front. Offroad, I sometimes feel like the steering wheel is controlling me rather than vice versa. Hopefully this will dampen it a bit.
• Possible replace steering box and pump. I replaced the box last fall, but I think I may have gotten a bad one. It has a feeling in it that I can't really describe, but doesn't feel right. Lifetime warranty, so since everything is going to be torn down anyway, might as well swap it out.
• Replace flex fan on the engine with clutch fan
• Build brackets for my D60 parking brake. (finally )
• Replace front seal on engine to fix a leak.

Whew! I am currently waiting for my injectors to come back from TNDiesel so the start date is kind of hinging on that, but once I get that and the adapter from AA, we are going to set a date and get the rig down to ARG.

[JeepinPete]

Sounds like quite the upgrade! Might want to consider make up a new set of motor mounts using the liquid filled buggers while you're at it. After all, it isn't my money

[lobie]

Glad to here its been doing well. I curious why you say the 205 is "low low"? The low ratio is 1.96 which is not very low unless you have found a Low Max kit. I like the 205 and have used it on several projects, I wish I could find a Low Max kit or they would start to produce them again.

As for the 727, I had one that came with my cummins but knew it wasn't going to be pleased. Good choice on the NV.

[olllllo]

Sounds like quite the upgrade! Might want to consider make up a new set of motor mounts using the liquid filled buggers while you're at it. After all, it isn't my money

I love the idea, but not on this round...

Glad to here its been doing well. I curious why you say the 205 is "low low"? The low ratio is 1.96 which is not very low unless you have found a Low Max kit. I like the 205 and have used it on several projects, I wish I could find a Low Max kit or they would start to produce them again.

As for the 727, I had one that came with my cummins but knew it wasn't going to be pleased. Good choice on the NV.

Oops.. I wasn't clear re: LOW low. I meant the 5.61 1st gear of the NV4500 vs the 2.45 of the TF727!

[Tigger4X]

I am so SUNBSCRIBED!!

I have been toying with the idea of running a Cummins in one of my FSJs and all th einfo I am finding in this thread has me and wanting to get to it!! EXCELLENT WRITE UPS


In regards to the steering issue ... have you considered hydro-assist? Its an awesome upgrade and one that I intend to stick on one of my J-10s with the CUCV 60/14 axles and running 37's. Night and day difference!

[dusty]

im going to throw something out here

sell your dodge adapter plate. buy a 4bt/ford small block adapter plate.... the most common taht ever came behind them. install a small block ZF 5 speed

same ratios as a nv4500 and less cost i just bought a sbf zf for $150. with the nv youll be buying a flywheelm bell housing and t-case adapter. with teh zf the ford 205 and the ford 208 bolt up minus a little shift rail clearancing and it has an integrated bell that bolts straight to the sbf/4bt adapter plate





And i would seriously consider a ford np208. the np205 in my ford cummins the low range wasnt low enough. i swapped ina np241 (similar to a np208) and that little bit extra was exactly what the engine needed get spinning and it was alot less hang down than my old ford 205 plus cheaper