Diesel drivetrain options...

[uglyjeep]

I've been (slowly) working on setting up a 6.2 and 3053a (military 2.5 ton trans) for my truck. I've known that I'd need to have this setup balanced, but I had also figured that it’d be under $200 to have it done. I just got told by the machinist, at a reputable shop, that he thinks the work will probably run between $200 and $400 ! I was doing this swap because it was going to be cheaper than swapping in a Cummins, but now I’m thinking that I can sell my 6.2 and use the money I’d have spent on the machine work (plus some more) and get myself a 6bt or something.

So the way I see it I’ve got several options – 1) have the machine work done and run the 6.2/3053a. 2) Sell the 3053a stuff and spend $1000 to have an nv4500. 3) Get rid of the 6.2 and squeeze in a Cummins 6bt (I can’t afford a 4bt). 4) run a SBC or BBC on LPG or CNG.

I’m good at scrounging parts and being very patient to find the best deals. I have also seen several complete 6bt drive-trains for $1000 or less. I have not found any NV4500’s or 4bt’s in my range. I also have a very limited budget.

[mattmopar440]

6BT good strong engine I6 so it easier to swap dose wieght a little

[JeepinPete]

The 6BT is such a better engine, it make little sense to put any money into a 6.2L. But anything with the Cummins name is pricey. So that makes a budget build pretty tough.

Why not use the 3053 with the 6BT? I am no expert on this, but doesn't the 3053 use SAE spec bellhousings and clutches? The 6BT was used in a lot of applications other than Dodge trucks, and SAE spec parts should be available for it, and probably a whole lot cheaper.

I've got a 6.2 sitting out in the barn that I bought with the intention of swapping into the Cherokee. Turns out two of the cylinders were pretty rusty, so I am tearing it down and parting it out to recoup my money. I just can't justify putting money into it when it will be worth next to nothing when its done. I picked up a Cummins B3.3 this past weekend which will need to be rebuilt. At least when it is done, if I need to move it, I will be able to get my money back out of it.

[uglyjeep]

The more I think about it, the more I like that idea. I recently found a driveable 91 ram with a 6bt and manual trans, for 1500. I wonder if the guy still has it...

[uglyjeep]

I just found a running 4bta locally for under a grand! I'm going to check it out tommorrow. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that its as described. If it is, I'll have to sell all my 6.2 stuff .

[VonBoomenstien]

if you are going to swap take your time and get the best. why do all the work for 2nd or 3rd best? 6bt wieghs 1250 lbs but will give you 500k and if you get the 12 valve everything is mechanical and the electrical is a positive and a negative wire and you are done. have you ever driven a vehicle with the 3035? my experience with military trucks is if it has a clutch you are going to need knee replacement surgery by the time you get to where you are going.

You can find a 97 or older dodge with an automatic for $5000 sometimes less if you are lucky and then you have everything you need including a suspension designed for the weight and torque.

i know what your thinking because everyone who sees my project has better ideas (in there opinion) then what i am planning but you will be driving it so make sure its exactly what you want

[DieselSJ]

So if you decide to go Cummins and you want to sell that 6.2, put my name on the list. I'll be in Lucerne and Barstow later this year and can pick it up. I'm kinda thinking about pulling the 350 out of my CJ and dumping in a 6.2/6.5.

[uglyjeep]

DieselSJ - I've already abandoned my diesel gladiator project, and I'm not planning on dropping the 6.2 into my cherokee. I listed the 6.2 in the for sale section (a while ago), and I'm open to offers. Heck, if you paid for my gas one way I'd even deliver it to you (it'd give me a reason to go to tucson for a weekend).

[conehead]

I haven't abandone my deisel project. I'm in the process of rebuilding an 87 j20 and picked up a 95 dodge with the cummings engine that I an going to squeeze in the jeep. I would appreciate any advide or pictures of other swaps. I looks like its going to be tight but I don't think I will be able to fit the intercooler in unless I move the firewall back a couple of inches, I'll do that if I have to but would rather not if there are other options.

[dusty]

Originally Posted by conehead

I haven't abandone my deisel project. I'm in the process of rebuilding an 87 j20 and picked up a 95 dodge with the cummings engine that I an going to squeeze in the jeep. I would appreciate any advide or pictures of other swaps. I looks like its going to be tight but I don't think I will be able to fit the intercooler in unless I move the firewall back a couple of inches, I'll do that if I have to but would rather not if there are other options.

cummi-N-s

otherwise if you go to get parts you mihgt be searching for awhile to find a company with a g at the end

move radiator forward a hair and pull the engine back tot he fire wall and things will fit

[jMedia]

Originally Posted by uglyjeep

DieselSJ - I've already abandoned my diesel gladiator project, and I'm not planning on dropping the 6.2 into my cherokee. I listed the 6.2 in the for sale section (a while ago), and I'm open to offers. Heck, if you paid for my gas one way I'd even deliver it to you (it'd give me a reason to go to tucson for a weekend).

Wait if you've really abandoned it, I am in california and looking for a 6.2. I've been havin a b*tch of a time trying to find one. What is it out of?
EDIT: Is it the 87 jcode from your earlier posts? cause if so, dang. I have to have 89 or newer and out of a "light duty". Where did you get those? Any tips?
EDIT: EDIT: I didnt look at how old these posts are Sorry

[uglyjeep]

No worries.
I've switched projects around, sold stuff, and bought stuff so many times that I'm not sure which way is up.

I really don't know how DMV is going to be able to tell whether your engine is an early engine or a later one (do they have a book with the casting numbers?). I also doubt that they'll know enough about engines to check for the EGR or any of the other differences between 1/2 and 1 ton engines. I think that it is most likely that they'll look to see if the 6.2 (or 6.5) was offered in that year or later. But then again, I have NO clue how an engine swap works with DMV.

Look on craigslist on a regular basis. I picked up the one I'm going to run in bakersfield for a bit more than I would have liked to pay, but it came out of a low mileage truck that I drove before pulling the engine. My spare I bought in pomona, and I got that one for $75. It runs and came with most of a banks turbo kit. The guy that sold it to me said it was burning oil, which I found out at home ,after a thorough inspection, is coming from blown seals on the turbo. I still see what appear to be good deals pop up, you just have to look. On a side note, I have only seen one 6.5 on craigslist.

[budojeepr]

Originally Posted by uglyjeep

I really don't know how DMV is going to be able to tell whether your engine is an early engine or a later one (do they have a book with the casting numbers?). I also doubt that they'll know enough about engines to check for the EGR or any of the other differences between 1/2 and 1 ton engines. I think that it is most likely that they'll look to see if the 6.2 (or 6.5) was offered in that year or later.

When I went to register my diesel Wagoneer in Kaleefornia, the gal at DMV looked around it and couldn't find anything that verified to her that it was a diesel, so she referred me to the BAR referee.

Lesson Learned: Get an engine sticker from the diesel truck donor. Get a sticker for the gas filler that says "Diesel Only". etc. etc.

The BAR referee did indeed have documentation and gave me the boot because only light-duty truck diesels are allowed to be transferred into a light-duty truck (which the Wagoneer is), and a light-duty truck diesel had an EGR. My engine did not.

Long sad story is here: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=80533

[Tigger4X]

I find it odd that this thread popped to the top today, but the last post shown that I see is from 10-28-2009 on Page 3. Modern technology HA!

No matter cuz I'm after all the diesel info I can get my grubby hands on. I know this particular thread dates to 11 of 2008, but I'm hoping to find out what you have all figured out over these past couple years.

Originally Posted by Ugly Jeep

...

So the way I see it I’ve got several options – 1) have the machine work done and run the 6.2/3053a. 2) Sell the 3053a stuff and spend $1000 to have an nv4500. 3) Get rid of the 6.2 and squeeze in a Cummins 6bt (I can’t afford a 4bt). 4) run a SBC or BBC on LPG or CNG.

...

　
I'm struggling with the final decision between the 3.9 and the 5.9 Cummins. The 3.9 would be simple to fit in my '67 Gladiator and no sweat getting the intercooler in with some good stuff that can be swapped from the 5.9; i.e. the exhaust manifold modified to improve turbo placement, etc. Also being light than the 5.9 is also a bonus, but I've been looking into reversing the leaf spring to move my axle forward just a bit. Wanting a winch bumper like the one ARTISAN is fabbing means more forward weight too so moving the axle forward and having the 3.9 will help VS the 5.9L. The 5.9 has more grunt to it and more can be done to it. One of those I want to do is a CNG injection system and supposedly you have to have the "common rail" to pull it off. As much as I wanted to P-pump a 5.9 and eliminate the electronics the CNG kit is a BIG bonus to me if I go the 5.9 route.
　
The next thing this thread brought up was the 3053a manual trans. Looking at the link The PIG Smith posted this looks to be a much more stout candidate over the NV4500 I've been so hot for, not to mention the purported cost savings although I dont know whats changed over the past 2 years in that regards as well as what it'll take to get it to work behind the Cummins VS the Chevy they were working with. ANYBODY??

Originally Posted by Ugly Jeep

...

I’m good at scrounging parts and being very patient to find the best deals. I have also seen several complete 6bt drive-trains for $1000 or less. I have not found any NV4500’s or 4bt’s in my range. I also have a very limited budget.

...
　

I feel your budget pain, I think most of us do. It doesnt really matter if all of the components come from one source or are pieced together; budget is budget. Of course no sooner do I say that and the matter of shipping can quickly rack up.With that said does anyone have the ideal parts source list?
　

Originally Posted by Dusty

I will agree the 4bta is a great size for swapping into our FSJ's. in order of how i would look at my options.

1. First choice is the 4bta. the extra price is worth the saved headaches.

2. a isuzu 4BD1T/2T is a great little motor can be had fairly cheap is modeled after the cummis 4bta definately worth looking at as another option. nice thing with it is the turbo would be on the driverside vs the passenger side so exhaust routine would be easier with a passengerside front drive axle & T-case. mileage numbers are similar to the 4bta. power can be turned up to a certain extent.

3. The 6.2/6.5 would be my next choice hard to beat for the price, availability and versatility

4. Next id look at a chevy 350, 5.3 or 6.0 conversion the fuel injecitona nd Od would be a valuable improvement for mileage if thats what you are after.


5. the 6bta or a 6bt would work but it is more of a shoe horn job. it would be the last choce on my list of what to ever do again. been there done that. dont think id go that route again in a fsj. Its like trying to stick a 6.9 or 7.3 ford diesel into one its just big heavy and long taking up the engine compartment fully and really pushing the workable space when maitnance becomes necessary. the 6bta rear valve covers are a pain to get off in most conversions without serious massaging of the firewall and the engine weight was so far forward due to the jeep firewall being as far forward as it is that 3 of the 6 cylinders were forward of the front axle at 1200 lbs thats alot of front axle weight creating leveage vs riding over or behind the axle.

You could do a Detroit they are fun, can be turned up and have a sound all to themselves

check out my build up if you want some pictures on the 4bt. around $1500-2000 for a 4bt is going rate. the 6.2 carries with it some other barriers. replacing & removing the heater. i chose the 4bta because of its compact size and easy serviceability. a V8 engine widens things out and i wanted an air to air cooler also. a 6.2 can easily produce 180-200 hp/ 350-375 ft/lbs torque especially with a turbo added on 400ft/lbs is possible making 18-21 mpg and around town 16-18. my 4bt i added injectors (40hp) for $300, and a HY35/9 turbo for another $400 (that includes oil return line, and new exhaust manifold) and i fully expect on the dyno some rear wheel numbers around 180-200hp and 415-450 ft/lbs with a mileage 25-26 empty and around 19-20 in town.

My list is similar to DUSTY'S but I already laid that out above in the beginning of my post. The Isuzu sounds interesting, but the write up on here that somebody did entails a bunch of machining that I highly doubt I could afford. Beyond that it diodnt sound all that bad at all. Behind the budget is my main goal of MPGs being king. The potential dyno numbers DUSTY guess-timated sound pretty nice, but as long as the MPGs are there I'm not into posting up crazy numbers. Nothing wrong with 'em, but I'll save that for my monster build somewhere in the future. I dont recall DUSTY'S powertrain set-up but I wonder what they'd look like with either the NV4500 or the 3053a under my quad cab J-truck. Now if only there was a way to get a 3.9L to work with the "common rail" system found on the 5.9L that was mentioned in the article about that CNG injection kit I want.
　
[quote=dustydoggy]Simplicity personified is the 6bt arrangement. Even though I am not a fan of automatics an early 727 type 3 speed (diesel specific "518?") or the non electronic "47rh?" should hold up well under most anything short of a high horse/torque monster.

...
　
Sorry for my rant. Try and get a $1500 4x4 with a stick and you're golden. I think the 1992.5 & 1993 had the nv4500 and Dana 60F & Dana70R.[/quote]
　
I havent seen enough about an auto trans behind a Cummins to make me want one beyond my preference against them. I'd mentioned a parts source list. Not having been able to piece together exactly what I actually need I have no clue where to begin, much less find a donor like you mention here. UGH!!
　

Originally Posted by The PIG Smith

Originally Posted by uglyjeep
The MV surplus place near me wants $450 for a take off and $1000 for a full rebuilt. I've heard about a place in Los Angeles that gets 200 for take offs
Those prices sounds about right for around here as well.

The 3053a is a good unit.
I drove deuce and a half's (M35) when I served the Army and other than the goofy pattern, it shifted no different than the any other truck tranny...like a T18.

...

you're never gonna speed shift one.
I have forgotten if 5 tons used the 3053a or not.


For those not familiar with a 5053a, here is a good article about it

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticl...ion/index.html


Also, this article compares the 3053a to a NV4500.

This being posted has me wondering what has changed over the past year/two and what all it would take to run the 3053a instead of the NV4500. To me the side by side has the 3053a over the NV4500. But the magazine guys did it with a Chevy. Has anybody actually put the 3053a behind a Cummins? What varies from the article parts wise and what needs special work done by a shop or whatever?

[JeepinPete]

I made up the adapter for the Isuzu simply because I can. Saved quite a bit of money doing that way. But there are two kits out there that I know of to adapt the Isuzu to the SBC bolt pattern. They run ~$700. The Isuzu can be had a lot cheaper than the Cummins if you are patient. There simply isn't the demand for them like there is for the 4BT. I picked up mine off of ebay for $500 running, and have seen them in Craigslist since for the same amount. Plus if they need a rebuild, there is no machining of the block. They use a press in sleeve which can be done at home if you like. The complete rebuild kit is ~$1200.

[uglyjeep]

When I was planning on using the 3053a, I did find a few threads regarding putting a cummins in front of the 3053 (IIRC on a dodge forum). One guy used the original m35 bellhousing with one of the various SAE pattern adapters available for the b-series engines. I don't know much more than that.

[HerrKooled]

I am doing body swap on 2nd gen cummins ram. Decent ride quality, using modern dodge lift/suspension, and axles/drivetrain parts durability far exceeding that of Jeep original. Not sure about the limit for jeep dana 60 rear, but I can run some pretty big tires on a cummins ram dana 80 rear.

[Tigger4X]

Originally Posted by uglyjeep

When I was planning on using the 3053a, I did find a few threads regarding putting a cummins in front of the 3053 (IIRC on a dodge forum). One guy used the original m35 bellhousing with one of the various SAE pattern adapters available for the b-series engines. I don't know much more than that.

Thanks for the tip on the Dodge forum! With the extended wheelbase I'm working with the minimal difference in trans length is of no consequence. I guess a new hunt is in the works.

[jaber]

Originally Posted by Tigger4X

the minimal difference in trans length is of no consequence.

When I got my Willys P/U, it had a Ford Y-block and 4speed in it, with a divorced D-18 t-case and the front drive shaft had a carrier bearing.

[Tigger4X]

Originally Posted by JeepinPete

I made up the adapter for the Isuzu simply because I can. Saved quite a bit of money doing that way. But there are two kits out there that I know of to adapt the Isuzu to the SBC bolt pattern. They run ~$700. The Isuzu can be had a lot cheaper than the Cummins if you are patient. There simply isn't the demand for them like there is for the 4BT. I picked up mine off of ebay for $500 running, and have seen them in Craigslist since for the same amount. Plus if they need a rebuild, there is no machining of the block. They use a press in sleeve which can be done at home if you like. The complete rebuild kit is ~$1200.

I'd be open to the Isuzu, especially knowing I can do a FULL rebuild for $1200 and in my own space. Knowing there are adapter kits out there makes it easier to consider, but with budget restraints I'd need to find one that doesnt need a rebuild and hopefully be able to find a "kit" like yours that doesnt cost an arm and a leg.