Diesel Swap Regulations - long post!

[jaber]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with gratuituous pleasantries.
I like to be overly polite to people at work. It seems to throw them off balance.

X2, I'm a long-hair and when I'm pleasant most people are surprised and seem to be a little more open.

Cant wait to hear your results....

[RubiconMike]

I had a 1981 Oldsmobile cutlass with the 5.7 diesel engine. Most of the problems, IMO, were related to poor maintenace practices by people used to gas engines. It had 200K when I let it go, still running strong. Now that I think of it, that might be a darn good swap. If I could find one...

IIRC, there was a huge class action lawsuit because that engine had a nasty habit of snapping crankshafts and camshafts. Lots of 6.2 and 6.5 diesels out there and they have an excellent reliability record (hey, AM General put them in H1s) 'Course if you can find a 5.7 that still runs and want to put it in a FSJ, I'd look forward to reading about it.

Good article here if anyone is interested, says they had corrected most of the problems by '81.

From Wikipedia:
"Oldsmobile's engines, the 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s and this 4.3 L V6, were notoriously unreliable. Although over one million were sold between 1978 and 1985, the failure rate of GM's engines ruined the reputation of diesel engines in general in the United States market. Eventually, a class action lawsuit resulted in an arbitration system under the supervision of the Federal Trade Commission where consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of the engine in the event of a failure.
The primary problem with GM's diesel engines of the 1970s was their design — although the engines used a specific block, the design was based on Oldsmobile's 350 V8. The design had a weakness in the head design and head bolts, which were not able to withstand the higher cylinder pressures and temperatures of diesel use. This design weakness combined with poor diesel fuel quality in the 80's led to catastrophic failure of pistons, cylinder heads, and even cylinder walls. Reinforced truck diesel engines, from GM and other companies, did not have these problems."

[Mikel]

IIRC, there was a huge class action lawsuit because that engine had a nasty habit of snapping crankshafts and camshafts. Lots of 6.2 and 6.5 diesels out there and they have an excellent reliability record (hey, AM General put them in H1s) 'Course if you can find a 5.7 that still runs and want to put it in a FSJ, I'd look forward to reading about it.

Good article here if anyone is interested, says they had corrected most of the problems by '81.

From Wikipedia:
"Oldsmobile's engines, the 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s and this 4.3 L V6, were notoriously unreliable. Although over one million were sold between 1978 and 1985, the failure rate of GM's engines ruined the reputation of diesel engines in general in the United States market. Eventually, a class action lawsuit resulted in an arbitration system under the supervision of the Federal Trade Commission where consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of the engine in the event of a failure.
The primary problem with GM's diesel engines of the 1970s was their design ? although the engines used a specific block, the design was based on Oldsmobile's 350 V8. The design had a weakness in the head design and head bolts, which were not able to withstand the higher cylinder pressures and temperatures of diesel use. This design weakness combined with poor diesel fuel quality in the 80's led to catastrophic failure of pistons, cylinder heads, and even cylinder walls. Reinforced truck diesel engines, from GM and other companies, did not have these problems."

The Olds diesels were an attempt by GM to comply with CAFE standards. We'll see the same in a few years...

[joe]

Good article here if anyone is interested, says they had corrected most of the problems by '81.

They had solutions anyway in 81. Co. I worked for bought an 81 Chev 4x4 truck with the silly dsl motor. In 82 they sent a letter to bring it in for a free upgrade. Upgrade was a new block. Motor worked good but the Co. folded in 82 so don't know the rest of the trucks history. Seems in the last production of these they stsrted out with the new and improved blocks so the last dsl rigs according to lore/legend held up pretty well. ??? I wouldn't rule out the last generation of the GM play-at dsl but that'd be the "only one" of em I risk time and money on.
When was the last one of these offered in Olds, Cad, Chev's?

[budojeepr]

Well, I'm back. I could have passed, but I needed an "EPR valve" and "EPR solenoid". EPR is a flapper under the driver side exhaust manifold. EPR solenoid is a vacuum/electrical switch mounted up by the EGR solenoid.

So, it's possible (instead of impossible like it looked yesterday). Just needs a bit more work.

Those of you figgerin' on putting in a 4BT and registering in Kalifornia better go Dusty's route. You'll play hob trying to referee a light-duty vehicle with a heavy-duty vehicle's engine in it.

[AnnieL]

Great thread!
Question: Could you could change the title to reflect that this is for California rigs? A lot of folks here in the smog nazi state might find it very useful!

[budojeepr]

Great thread!
Question: Could you could change the title to reflect that this is for California rigs? A lot of folks here in the smog nazi state might find it very useful!

Well, I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change the thread title. I tried...

However, I started it so that people from other states or zones could chime in with their particular knowledge.

Thank you!

Brad

[75sewg]

sell your current waggy and get a 75 or older and be done with it. smog excempt for 75 and older.

[jeepdreamer]

NOBODY buy old Jeeps!!

Im skared! If everybody looking to eventually swap in an oil burner (like me) and they all snap up the pre '75s.... what will i do!?!?! LOL

[jaber]

Well, I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change the thread title. I tried...

Thank you!

Brad

In the first post, clik "EDIT" in the bottom corner. When it comes up, click "anvanced" and it will let you change the title.

[Dr Teeth]

Keep fighting the good fight!

This thread illustrates why both cars I drive were made before 1975.

I do know that people have bought earlier wagoneers that were trashed just to swap titles with their rig that was having smog problems. Yes, I know this is illegal. No I'm not recomending anyone do this. I have not done this. It's an extreme solution but I felt it is worth mentioning in this thread as it shows to what extremes car nuts have had to go to enjoy their vehicles with our smog laws.

Todd

[Fiodh. Argus]

I haven't swapped titles, either, I did give it a lot of consideration but the drawbacks are just too serious, even if it seems ridiculous that a vehicle that is identical a year or two before is exempt while my 77 isn't. But one thing to consider before trying is that the DMV wants to check the VIN in two locations - one in the engine firewall and one on the door jam... changing the door jam sticker could be tough but not impossible... a lot of body work to hide it though! The way I interpret this is that means swapping a body would be legal and would retain the title, but only swapping the firewall riveted on VIN plate would land a person in a world of trouble. .Fines, court, even jail?


that's just stupid to me but it's the way it is. I would definitely consider taking a 75 body tub and mounting it on my 77 frame and drivetrain, then moving fenders, interior, etc over to the 75 body. I wouldn't want post mount springs due the difficulty finding proper lift kits.


Even if one were to get away with just the firewall VIN plate at first - a good friend of mine was involved in a car accident where someone was killed... that person was crouching, and then stood up in the fast lane as he came around the bend doing 70. That person was picking up something they dropped out of the car while driving. ... ..he plowed right into that person and it wasn't pretty. I can't make a judgement on the exact situation, but the authorities impounded his car and took it apart bolt by bolt checking everything to make sure he wasn't at fault. In a situation like that, all VINs better match up. He had the fight of his life on his hands just to keep from being ruined financially. It nearly put him under.

Sorry this reply isn't exactly about diesel but more about smog. If only we had continued rolling the years forward. I'd like to get a 77 Trans Am or something and have fun with it.

[budojeepr]

sell your current waggy and get a 75 or older and be done with it. smog excempt for 75 and older.

I mentioned that in this post...

I investigated EGRs and EPRs.

The EPR is a flapper valve at the bottom of the driver side exhaust manifold, controlled by vacuum from the EPR sensor/solenoid. At idle, it's essentially closed which raises the exhaust pressure to the EGR. The EGR sits in the middle of the intake (where a gasser's carb would be). I can't say for sure but I think exhaust comes directly from the head up through the center of the intake, and is metered into the intake manifold by the EGR. At full throttle, the EGR is off and the EPR flapper is open. At idle, the EGR is on and the flapper is closed.

My diesel did not come with the EGR valve. The intake has no provision for it and my exhaust manifold did not have the EPR. I don't know if the heads I have would support it anyway.

Thus, to make it CA-emissions compliant would require me to get a new intake manifold, exhaust manifold with the EPR, EGR solenoid, EPR solenoid, and lots of other bits I only have vague knowledge about.

I believe I will go with 75sewg's suggestion and get an older Wag to put my drivetrain into. I found a 1969 locally for $400...I'll try to grab it.

Anybody know what-all it takes to swap bodies on these rigs? Time for another thread, I think.

[Fiodh. Argus]

there was an old FSJ magazine article highlighting a body swap. They had a lot of guys to lift, or if you had a good big hoist that would be great. I actually don't think it's as much work as it sounds, but what do I know?

[budojeepr]

Well, so far Dr Teeth has the best thread I've seen with pics of a Wag body hovering over the chassis:

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=66564