Narrowed it down I guess

[ShagWagon]

Yeah I really appreciate your opinion. Always nice from someone who's been there, done that...

Especially when there's soooo many choices and everyone seems to do it a different way.

I just found a Holley Sniper that looks pretty good for $1k. Says it bolts up to 2 and 4bbl manifolds but it's out till October... Holley has been around some.

I was planning to pull the trigger on the FItech yesterday, but was only planning on around $1400 and that's saving by doing it myself.


Not so sure now that I would have to buy and install a different manifold. SURPRISE!! Are they easy to install? And is there any " might as well do this" while we're in there? Seems like there always is.

Also curious on the Howell and Hamilton. They offer distributors with their kits. Are these upgraded better distributors to handle FI? Or just modified stock ones? And would I have to upgrade whole ignition system on top of the kit? Like a new coil, wires, ignition control box... Or is it just more like not neccesary but you should? I had a hi performance ignition module on my parts donor I switched out a few weeks ago when I learned what an ignition module was and the motor won't start with a bad one. Would this one work okay enough?

[babywag]

A 4bbl is an upgrade vs. the stock 2bbl, there is nothing especially hard about installing one. There is nothing "while you're in there" to do when installing an intake.

To take advantage of timing control a modified distributor is required.
The stock Motorcraft distributor can be modified to use pretty easily.
What system you run determines what needs to be upgraded/replaced/added/etc.

Your swapped high performance module is just a module, nothing really high performance about it.

Howell kits do not come with a distributor AFAIK, they also don't control timing. You can probably add these options on, but it would be extra $$.

Bill's system does timing control, and comes with a distributor.
No suprises, no extra parts needed AFIAK.

Fitech is probably going to be the most expensive option, as you've already found out.

[cjsrebiff]

I don't really post much, but I thought I would put in my .02. I have the Howell system. Did some reserch prior to purchase. It is an extremely easy bolt on. Everything was clearly labeled and instructions were laid out very well. I dropped in a new engine and the support from Howell was great. Letting me know if and what I needed. I made my decision after talking a friend that works at Warn. They know a little about off road performance.

Also, on something like fuel system, i wouldn't shop by price. It will cost more in the end.

[John N]

I have a Howell on my Scrambler with a 360. Between that, a DUI HEI distributor and an Edlebrock Performer intake, it's been really reliable. I installed it all myself. The only issues initially were vacuum leaks that had to be chased down. It runs great and starts easily.

[darylb]

Different headers

I would stay away from the Doug Thorley headers. Yes, they will weld the bung in for your O2 sensor, but their design is garbage. The header flange is cut so that the holes for the ports are way too small, it cuts about 15% or more of the exhaust flow right at the manifold. And they have already ground out all of the extra material they could so you can't improve the flow any further.
I have plenty of pictures to show what I mean. When you complain to Thorley about it they say that you will only lose 4 to 7 horses and you really don't need them for your application.
There is a header thread on here that goes through the other headers, stick with one of those. You'll save money and get much better headers.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=151504

[babywag]

Not too many choices for a late model SJ these days.
Hedman's are very lousy as well, way worse than Thorley's on the welding/ports.
I would never spend the $ on a new set of Thorley's though either.

You should have seen the ports on the CJ5 headers I bought. Just awful 1/4" off in several areas.

[darylb]

I have a set of long tube headers that I pulled off of a J truck, don't know the maker. These look good, the flange doesn't interfere with the spark plugs and the ports are the same as the gasket including dog legs with a bit of room left for porting. The only "negative" is they are straight back on both sides, needing an H-pipe into duals or a very long custom Y-pipe. I can live with that negative.

babywag: My Thorleys dog leg doesn't even extend past the rectangular portion of a standard gasket on several cylinders. They would have been better off just going rectangular and trying to get as much port size as possible rather than giving us a phony dog leg look.

[babywag]

OP has a late model...choices are limited for a new bolt on pair of headers.

Hedman cheapies $185
Hedman ceramics $450
Thorley's $625

Not aware of any others out there for a late model.

Having seen Hedman's ports/welding I sure wouldn't buy a $450 set.

I bought my Thorley's used and have far less then $185 in 'em.
The ports/welding aren't terrible, certainly better than Hedman's I've seen pictures of.
But, I would NEVER pay that much $ for a new pair of headers...no way no how.

[ShagWagon]

Glad you guys brought up the headers thing, I was just thinking I need to resolve the o2 sensor situation first before I can install a kit.


Upon doing some research here on the forums, it seems that everybody hates all brands of headers. Seems like for every person who likes a particular set there's 2 or more that have complaints lol.....


It just seems like the thing to do since I have to have a shop weld a bunghole and hope they know what they're doing and paying for it. I could use that money towards some new headers with a better sound and a few ponies more for a few dollars more if I could purchase a header with bunghole already pre installed if they come that way? I don't mind throwing some money towards better quality if it's worth it.

Would it be smart to use the edelbrock intake with an edelbrock headers because they are designed by the same company to work with each other?

How good are the stock headers? Starting to sound pretty good to me right now if it's less hassle to just have a muffler shop add a bunghole in. Would they have the part on hand at the shop? Or would I have to order it somewhere? I can probably get a stock 4bbl intake too if it works better.

How much better and cooler are the aftermarket headers in general compared to the stock ones I currently have?

Also are these headers obnoxious loud? I'm not going for that. Don't want to disrupt the whole forest athough I'd like something that still sounds cool good.

Any special tools required for header install? I'm not foreseeing anything but I've never done it before.

[ShagWagon]

Will cruise control hook up easily to these and still work right?


Gotta have cruise so I can catch more Pokemon when I drive down the HWY......

[babywag]

A shop welding in an o2 sensor bung is like $25-$35 maybe a little more. (Depends on shop)
They also sell kits that don't require welding, you drill a big hole and sandwich the plate w/ o2 sensor bung onto exhaust pipe, and clamp it down. I believe the FiTech kit comes with one like this?

The stock exhaust manifolds work just fine, better than most stockers.

Edelbrock hasn't made the AMC headers in years, they are no longer available for purchase new.
You can always add aftermarket headers later. No special tools required.
However a new exhaust system should be installed to gain the most benefit from them.

A stock 4bbl intake would work, but I wouldn't waste the effort in installing another 75lb cast iron intake if I was pulling the stock 2bbl intake.
If you go used intake manifold just get an Edelbrock intake for ~$100-150.

Cruise will work just fine with whatever system you decide on, just need to reattach the cable/chain to throttle lever.

[Woodchomper]

ShagWagon...Have you considered building your own TBI system? Most of the people that have put together their own system have had good results. Well at least the ones that frequent this forum. Anyway, as you probably already know there are some good sites to learn about TBI installs such as:

Gearhead EFI:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forumdisplay.php?18-Fuel-Injection-Writeups-Articles-and-How-to-New-and-Old

Thirdgen:

http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/

Binder Planet: (BTW Bill USN-1 is Hamilton Injection)

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?forums/injection-tech.75/

I have been running the same TBI system in my Wagoneer since 2005. What I liked about the system I put together was the ability to see what the heck was going on as I learned to tune. Check out this link for more info. http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShots.php

I've listed a couple of questions you may want to consider when deciding which EFI you want to invest money in:

1. Does it have timing control? If not, you are spending money for half a system. Why do you think there is a sticky in this forum for adding timing control to a Howell system?

2. What additional equipment is needed to tune your system? Things like an EEPROM burner, EEPROM Emulator, Laptop, etc. add up quick.

2a. Even with mail order chip burning you will probably still need to provide feedback data to the vendor which means a computer and a data cable.

3. What capabilities exist to troubleshoot your system? A check engine light means nothing if you cannot access the data that triggers it.

4. What engine mods are needed to install the EFI. Babywag already covered this one.

5. What are your expectations and reasons for wanting EFI? EFI will not fix an engine that has a mechanical problem (ex. bad rings or cam) and will not give give gobs of power or economy over a properly tuned carb. It will however give easier starts and more consistent performance.

6. What EFI system would the people on this forum that have successfully built and tuned TBI vehicles use? For me it would be a home-built TBI with timing control and a Wideband O2 gauge to check my work as I drive.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

[Bill USN-1]

If you would like specifics, simply call me.
360 969-2925
As Babywag mentioned:
My systems are complete fuel and ignition upgrades.
The only thing you provide is fuel lines.
I run what I sell.
Cheaper may not really be cheaper once your done with the install.
My kits come with the data cable and the software.
The system will autotune but I always include custom tuning for every system so the it doesn't have to adjust until conditions require it like driving to 14,000ft in CO.

[ShagWagon]

If you would like specifics, simply call me.
360 969-2925
As Babywag mentioned:
My systems are complete fuel and ignition upgrades.
The only thing you provide is fuel lines.
I run what I sell.
Cheaper may not really be cheaper once your done with the install.
My kits come with the data cable and the software.
The system will autotune but I always include custom tuning for every system so the it doesn't have to adjust until conditions require it like driving to 14,000ft in CO.

Appreciate you chiming in as I did consider your system but I did a search on this and another FSJ forums and foogle for Hamilton. Don't take this wrong please take it as constructive criticism for improvement by a possible consumer who seriously considered buying your product.

Nothing came up when I searched for titles with keyword Hamilton except your post for some throttle body adapters for a lot of other cars. Couldn't find anything or anyone who installed it on their jeeps here or there. I can't go by your own forums for non-bias because it can be manipulated by vested interest and gustapoed out anything negative.

The only thing that pops up on a Google search are people who have problems with Hamilton products and what they had to do to fix it.

Then the kicker for me is throwing out $1400 for an as-is,no warranty, no garantee product, no returns, no exceptions as stated by disclaimer just before you click buy it now.

Don't take it wrong I'm not saying it doesn't work, and that you don't make something well and stand by your product, and that you wouldn't give good customer service and support.

But some kind of warranty should be in order for me to buy something for that kind of coin.

[ShagWagon]

ShagWagon...Have you considered building your own TBI system? Most of the people that have put together their own system have had good results. Well at least the ones that frequent this forum. Anyway, as you probably already know there are some good sites to learn about TBI installs such as:

Gearhead EFI:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forumdisplay.php?18-Fuel-Injection-Writeups-Articles-and-How-to-New-and-Old

Thirdgen:

http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/

Binder Planet: (BTW Bill USN-1 is Hamilton Injection)

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?forums/injection-tech.75/

I have been running the same TBI system in my Wagoneer since 2005. What I liked about the system I put together was the ability to see what the heck was going on as I learned to tune. Check out this link for more info. http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShots.php

I've listed a couple of questions you may want to consider when deciding which EFI you want to invest money in:

1. Does it have timing control? If not, you are spending money for half a system. Why do you think there is a sticky in this forum for adding timing control to a Howell system?

2. What additional equipment is needed to tune your system? Things like an EEPROM burner, EEPROM Emulator, Laptop, etc. add up quick.

2a. Even with mail order chip burning you will probably still need to provide feedback data to the vendor which means a computer and a data cable.

3. What capabilities exist to troubleshoot your system? A check engine light means nothing if you cannot access the data that triggers it.

4. What engine mods are needed to install the EFI. Babywag already covered this one.

5. What are your expectations and reasons for wanting EFI? EFI will not fix an engine that has a mechanical problem (ex. bad rings or cam) and will not give give gobs of power or economy over a properly tuned carb. It will however give easier starts and more consistent performance.

6. What EFI system would the people on this forum that have successfully built and tuned TBI vehicles use? For me it would be a home-built TBI with timing control and a Wideband O2 gauge to check my work as I drive.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

I appreciate your long winded post.

I'm leaning towards the Fitech, edelbrock new manifold, and FCC setup. Gonna be $1700.

Only concern is the FCC being too loud/annoying and replacement if it goes south in the future. I suppose if it does I can replace it with something else.
I can go in tank pump but I spent a lot of time getting my fuel sender calibrated just right for my fuel gauge that I never want to open that hole ever again for a long time if I don't have to.

I think this Fitech setup does address all of your points unless I'm not getting it right.

1. Yes claims to have timing control. With the stock distributor.

2. $700 in extras but gives me a new 4bbl edelbrock manifold and a sump based fuel pump which seems best all-around. Improvements on both counts?

2a if I understand this, the Fitech learns as you drive and adjusts automatically for best performance by sniffing its own waste with a wide and o2 sensor and adjusting till it's clean. No programming needed just answer a few basic ? Before Initial startup like engine size, mods, wheels etc... It will sense driving habits and create its own personal tune based on driving habits and engine wear


3. Has handheld Fitech and ports for laptops etc.... And adjustments I don't even know how to make. Seems more than enough?

4. See #2

5. Yep easier starts and consistent performance. Don't like the dying on right turns, noxious smoke and fumes every start, super hi idle when cold, etc... Plus my throttle body spacer on carb is broken and carb needs rebuild and I don't know how to build a carb right. I've attempted about 5 times in my life and took it to a mechanic in a box every time.

6. Although seems the best option to save money and an opportunity to learn something new, I just don't want to get in to it that far.

Plus I cashed out at exactly $1700 for some weird reason at the casino the other night.


Thanks