Holley Projection or Howell EFI?

[will e]

If you want to stick it to the oil companies:

Drive Less
Drive Slower
Lower your weight
Air up your tires
Keep it tuned

As far as cost. Someone mentioned a carb is cheaper to buy. That made me realize that I have had to spend almost no money on my FI on the mustang in over 10 years. If that had been a carb it would have been a couple of kits or rebuilds. In the long run my FI will probably be less expensive.

[Clem]

OK, so what route would anyone go if they were wanting to be above the 275 HP mark? I am researching this stuff myself right now. There is no reason a moderately built 360 can't put out 300+ HP...

[GED]

Yes, every morning, and every drive, TBI's a delight. The engine starts well now. no more cranking for 30 seconds. No more unexpected stalling. love it.

And for the $84 ($3/gallon) fill-ups, I remind myself that in France, they pay it $6/gallon.

[Chevelleguy]

Originally posted by Clem:
OK, so what route would anyone go if they were wanting to be above the 275 HP mark? I am researching this stuff myself right now. There is no reason a moderately built 360 can't put out 300+ HP...

My boss has a 350 chevy in a CJ with the Holley 2D and it was dyno tuned to 320hp. Holley says 275hp but it will support more. And, CFM requirement increase with RPM so if you keep it under 4500-5000, there shouldn't be a problem.

[Serious Johnson]

It's possible to have a powerful and reasonably efficient FSJ. My Wag gets right at 20 MPG if I try hard, 15 or so farting around, and can drop to 10 with very heavy towing or lots of tire smoke. It's hit 22 MPG, but not on a verifiable round-trip. I'd estimate flywheel HP at around 250-275. The basic setup:

360, .030 over, +-9.25:1 compression.
Mildly ported/cleaned-up heads w/ 3-angle.
Stock (port matched) exhaust manifold w/ very quiet single 3".
Summit K8600 cam, Crane springs.
Performer intake, GM TBI w/ custom chip.
Stock air filter housing w/ cold air hose intact, K&N element.
Stock distributor (w/ advance locked-out), TFI.
T-18a manual tranny (probably where almost all the efficiency gain was acheived), 208, 3.73s, 33s, 4" lift.
Mobil-1 0W20 in the motor, Redline synthetic in the boxes.

When the thing was stock (360/727/229/2.72s/28s, no lift) it could eke-out 13 MPG @ 75 MPH, 11-12 @ 50 MPH (torque converter loss with the tall gears & non-lockup), and 7-9 in town. Towing or tire smoke were not options.

I recently rented a Toyota Sequoia, and its performance & efficiency were both just a slight tick below those of my old Wag, and it got stuck in my driveawy.

S.J.

[ April 15, 2006, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Serious Johnson ]

[Eugene 1]

thats great

[DenverWoody]

thats great

Reviving this thread, as lots of things have changed since 2006.

I was recently quoted $3000 for a Howell TBI conversion, all-inclusive with tuning, exhaust, etc., by a very reputable Denver-area mechanic with FSJ experience.

Am I out of my mind for considering?

[babywag]

Before you decide on a Howell, I suggest you contact Bill-USN-1.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=174766

[DenverWoody]

Thanks for the suggestion. Lots to read up on.

Setting aside durability, which I'm sure many can attest to, my question is this:

Given that the Howell includes smog certification (Denver emissions differ from the rest of the state and are pretty strict) and is presumably backed by a factory warranty and support, is the Hamilton (or any kit/ setup available on the boards) really worth it?

My thought is that it's not, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Will probably stick to the stock carb and tune it as much as the factory setup allows, or go for the real deal TBI. No half measures, I always say.

[babywag]

I'm in CA and have a junkyard system complete with timing control (howell legal kit doesn't do timing control).
If I can pass smog here so can you there.

Were it me buying a system and paying someone else to install it Howell wouldn't be my first choice.
Trade some emails with Bill, and make your own decision.

[tgreese]

There's no question that either a junkyard system or Bill's conversion can be made to run clean enough to pass the tailpipe test. But it should not pass the visual, if you have one. In California, you are supposed to have an approval number (a CARB number) for any aftermarket equipment that affects emissions. I can't explain why Tony's conversion passes, but it's my understanding that it should not. Throttle body injection is obviously not a carburetor, and the inspection station's console will tell them that's what the car should have. The Howell CARB-approved kit is 50 states certified, so it is certain to pass in your locale.

Check what your local inspection includes. If it has a strict visual, then you may not pass with Bill's or a junkyard system. If all you need is a tailpipe test, then there is no reason to go with Howell, unless you just like their product.

[tgreese]

Ok, here are your requirements - http://aircarecolorado.com/index.php...n-program-faq/

The basic test is a tailpipe test on a dynamometer. This is about the dynamometer - http://www.tomco-inc.com/Tech_Tips/ttt24.pdf

So you will be held to some tailpipe gas (NOx, CO, HC) standards, which should be easy to pass if all your other emissions equipment (ie EGR, vapor recovery) is present. There is also a statement that you can fail because emissions equipment is missing. So they could fail you if you don't have the factory emissions equipment - which could be broadly defined to include the original carburetor. I would guess that you will pass if the tailpipe test is good, and maybe they will look under the hood. Certainly you need to have working vapor recovery, since they will test the gas cap sealing somehow. Look at the middle of the above page for ways you can fail the test. There is no mention of a visual inspection.

I'd suggest you find your local Jeep/4x4 forum and ask there about what the inspectors will do. IIRC there is a fairly active Colorado FSJ association, and members there will have first-hand experience dealing with the CO emissions laws http://www.cfsja.org/

[DenverWoody]

Thankfully I passed emissions two weeks ago when I purchased the car, so whatever I decide to go with won't be an issue for two years.

That said, I'm approaching every modification/ repair/ improvement with longevity in mind, as I expect to be buried in this thing. Any reason to worry about junkyard or DIY kits failing after extended use? Same question for Howell kit?

[DenverWoody]

Thanks Babywag. If I might ask, what would be your first choice?

I'm in CA and have a junkyard system complete with timing control (howell legal kit doesn't do timing control).
If I can pass smog here so can you there.

Were it me buying a system and paying someone else to install it Howell wouldn't be my first choice.
Trade some emails with Bill, and make your own decision.

[babywag]

Thanks Babywag. If I might ask, what would be your first choice?

I'd go with a system from Bill. I've helped people with a Howell system after they gave up trying/waiting for Howell to get it right.
He's a stand up guy, and seriously doubt he'd leave anyone hanging.
His sytem is better, and his support is probably better.