TH400.... are the bolt patterns different....

[JEEPRZ]

This may not even be an *option* in your mind, but have you considered the SJ 727 with a D300? Around here, those trannys are not too tough to find, they are plenty strong enough, and has lower gearing. The CJ d300 will bolt right up to one, and is also lower geared than the D20,18, o NP205. This would allow you to rebuild the trans, and have it ready to swap in minimizing teardown time. IF you decide on this, you will need a new flexplate, and youll need to remove the crank pilot spacer in the back of your flywheel. GOOD LUCK!


------------------
Dave
83 GW
360/727/229
tow rig for 85 CJ
3"lift, 31s, 3.31s, edlebrock intake (TBI in the works), cam, custom DIY exh, rebuilt trans shift kit and factory aux cooler,modified 229 (no viscous coupling, *improved* vacuum system), lotsa squeaks, leaks, and rattles

[Kenall]

scotty..ur killing me

32spline th400 tailshaft.

but it goes without saying that any input gear designed for a d20 shood not be used for an d18.

3/4T subburbans used th400/205s, a buddy with an 80 burb had this.

if u find parts in the yards, unless u can ID them from site, i wood not buy anything u intend to bolt together unless it was bolted together in the yard when u bought it.

its very foolish to buy the xcase from this place and the trany from another unless u can ID ea of the parts.

yes scotty, the d18 can be beefed up...but that is more $$$, and swapping the gears from it to a d20 is still more $$$. RB stated a budget and im am steering my response to that end.

since RB has the th400 already in his jeep we must run with the notion of obtaining parts used by the factory using that trany.
the d300 was not attached to that trany and the d300 is very expensive compared to d20s or even 205s.

the 727 is a tought trany but was not used in an SJ platform jeep WITH the d300 so it wood only consume more $$$ to make it fit in his jeep.

the best idea is to obtain complete and unseperated th400s/(whatever xcase) combos from the yards and install them into RB's jeep.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

[scotty]

kenall,kenall,kenall...

so u remove the input gear from the tailshaft of the th400... it has 29 external teeth and 32 internal splines? in this case,a d20 is the only case you can use with the factory combo. the d18 input gear(6 or 10 internal splines) will not swap onto the factory th400/d20 tailshaft.

am i understanding this correctly,or is there a spudshaft that has 32 internal splines at one end,and a 6 spline end for the gear to bolt to?

this is for my own personal knowledge,i have never seen in person a th400/d20 input gear,and wonder what it looks like.

on the 18 conversion,20 cases are a dime a dozen,and the 18s are not so hard to find,either. i could buy him one for $75 tomorrow and whatever it costs to ship it to him... the parts are a direct swap,no extra $$$ is necessary to swap the 18 guts into the beefier 20 housing.i just got finished doing it to create a t18 compatible spicer 18.

on the d300 swap,he allready has a passenger side diff,so that swap s not so tough,either. to swap in a 727 you need simply remove the th400 pilot bushing,install a 727 flexplate,and install the trhottle pressure linkage to the carb. the d300 bolts right to the 727,and he certainly has plenty of lift for front driveshaft clearance which is the only prollem with a 727/d300 combo. i tried to go this route,but the front driveshaft hits the tranny pan on a stock height wag so i put my 904 back in. i would not pay more than $300 for a d300. they are available fairly consistantly in the local papers and swap meets for that or less. i also know of one,in a bucket,that i could get for $50,reassemble,and send him.

when you factor in the cost of a tranny rebuild(to swap output shafts),the d300/727 option is not so far fetched. if you can find a strong 727 and a d300 at resaonable prices,it may be less than buying th400/205 AND rebuilding amcth400 with gm shaft.

prollem with the d300 is again,centered output,and stength not much more than the d20.

am not saying u r worng,just there are lots of ways to skin the transfer case cat.

i am in agreement,that by far the best option,strengthwise,is the 205.it is very good advice to only buy a combo that is bolted together.things get lost,broken,or just plain dont fit if theyre sepreate.just cause that 205 is sitting next to a th350 defiately does not mean it came from there...

ur thots?




------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

Well gents... the 205 combo is a no-go..for now....still gonna hunt for one elsewhere..... the guy won't part with it... has had it for years just sitting on a pallet and won't sell it.... HE's DUMB!!!!!

Thanks Bryant for the help....saved me a trip

I still like the idea of the 205 combo... ALOT... jaut gonna take some doin' to find now...

You guys are great!! I can't tell you how much I learn from you all...

If something doesn't happen soon.... I may not be going to TDS at Salton City March 3 and 4....bummer...

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[bigblack'74]

Guys that idea of the 727 and D300 is a sweet idea. i just rememberd one of my best friends has got an '86 cj with a built 360, 727, and D300. hes got 36 in. ground hawgs and he beats the hell out of this jeep and he has NO problems at all. that swap is bolt in...how can you go wrong with bolt in?? i love it i love it!

[Kenall]

scotty u asked me how many splines were on the th400 tail shaft, and there are 32.

but in the OE jeep th400/d20 arrangement, the input gear to the d20 slides over a special sleeve that itself slides over the 32 spline th400 output shaft.

the input gear to the d20 will have 29 external teeth and 15 internal splines. the sleeve will have 15 external splines and 32 internal splines.

RB has the th400 now...whatever he wood spend to purchase ANY other trany/xcase he cood use to rebuild and beef up what he has.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

The 300 sounds good, but you can't flat tow your rig with it unless it is modified to keep it lubed. You even have to flat bed it or pull a drive shaft to tow very far with a wrecker. Also D20's are a lot cheaper than 205's or 300's. Not to sure about the durability of D18's seen one ripped in 2 by a stock v6 CJ. (total abuse) Maybe in the d20 case but then ya gotta buy 2 cases.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[scotty]

ok kenall,i gotcha

so if RB decides to use a factory th400/d20 he is stuck with that combo.he cannot swap a d18 onto the factory th400 inplace of the 20 due to the fact that the factory combo uses a special input gear with 15 internal splines.no d18 application uses an input gear with 15 internal splines,and it will do you o good to bolt on the xfer if you cant swap the matching input gear.

given this new info,the 205 looks even better.you will be stuck with that,too,but youll prolly never break it.so being "stuck"
with it,rather than a 20,is prolly a better option.

RB if you cnage your mind on using the 18/20,i think youll be better off using an aftermarket kit rather than the factory stuff.

the offer will stand- if you want me to pick up and send you a 1 1/4 intermedait shaft 18,or get the bucket of d300 parts,id be happy to do so...

tho not the best option,dont forget you could use a 203-th400/203s are prolly a dime a dozen anywhere,and the part time kits for them are dit cheap,and with a part time kit,at least the chain is not working-power goes straigh thru,unlike the QT whose chain will always be working... thot id mention it,dont really know how favorable or horrible your experiences with them were.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

Man... between Scotty and Kenall my brain is oozing with great info!!!! thanks!!!

Scotty,

I had a converted 203 in a 79 Blazer... I didn't like it.... I had problems with it and being "stuck" with a 205 is a great option I won't mind living with... however I will have to keep my options open (with your offer) due to the fact I can't find a 205 worth the $$$ yet...(needing the TH400 combo, as you know).

Irbob said you can't "flat tow" a dana 300 w/o removing a shaft... I take it they (D300) don't have a neutral position...correct?



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[porkchop]

I have to agree that if you are going with the D20 option then you need to get the aftermarket setup. The one that you are looking at that has the striped rear shaft, the housing for the adapter is cracked. The other one that is still in the wag has a different bolt pattern not to mention the the starter is on the opposite side. You will need the engine/tranny adapter to make it work.

I am on leave to be with my wife more, but I have had the chance to look at a few junk yards. Yesterday I saw a M715 with the original running engine and all other parts are original. The guy wants $3500 for it. I am talking to the wife He also has all of the metal I need to make my bumpers.

I am going to go to some more today and tomorrow. I am looking for knuckles from a early model chevy and I am looking for you a good 205. I will keep you informed.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
?Old Timer?
Check it out!

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.

[scotty]

the d300 does have a neutral,and you can flat tow with the xfer in neutral for short distances. the reason you cannot go long distances is that the rear output shaft and bearings are above the oil line,and the lack of lubrication can cause very bad things,the least of which is very premature bearing failure. if youre flat towing a 300 with the driveshaft connected a long distance,its a good idea to stop and run the engine with the tranny in gear for awhile at least every 50 miles to splash some oil up there. check out the link above for tri county gear. they can have a slick little internal mod that lets you flat tow the d300 safely. its been awhile since ive read the article,but basically they add paddles to one of the oil slingers,or something,so that when you flat tow with the xfer in N and the front hubs locked the turning front shaft slings oil aroud sufficiently lubing the bearings and gears.i can dig up the article if youd like some more specifics...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[Kenall]

yes scott
but even if he had the 'normal' d20 setup with a 6internal splines input gear, he wood still be unable to convert to a d18 ezly because the d20 has a 4" opening and the d18 has 3".

on at least the OE jeep FSJ d20 th400 adaptors there is a pilot that protrudes from the rear face of the adaptor that is used much the same way as the drum pilot on a brake drum is used, to center the xcase to keep it aligned in relation to the input gear.

having this protrusion wood prevent the install of the d18 cuz of the 18s smaller opening...

i wood suspect that AAs kit that can install both the d20/18 has no such protrusion to prevent the installer he/her choice of xcases...

the d300 cant be flat towed as there is no gears within the xcase that will spin with the rotation of the driveshafts...

in the d20/18, the front driveshaft must be rotaing in order to spin the lower front slider gear which will fling oil up towards the rear output shaft bearing.

unlike the d20/18, when u shift the gears, ur shifter is actually moving an entire gear. in the d300 the shifter is only slider and small collar to engage the teeth on the gear just forward or aft of it.

think of the syncros in a manual trany and how they engage ea gear when they are moved back and forth and ur kno what this looks like.



------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

[Kenall]

the mod that scotty talks about is to heliarc small paddles to the shift collar with in the d300. these collars look much the same as the E drive shift collar within jeeps QT xcase. ie..a groove along its outside diameter and internal splines to match that of the shaft is mates too.

because the d300 output shafts are not connected DIRECTLY with any gear, these gears cannot fling oil around the inside of the case while u flat tow. the ouput shafts are directly connected to only those shift collars, and therfore, only those litle shift collars whood spin as the jeep is flat towed.

there is no teeth on these collars in which to fling oil like on a gear so u have to 'make' some...by heliarcing some on...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

I think you would have a really hard time finding a T400/203 combo most of those were T350/203's. The General was never real big on putting T400's in 4x4's until the late 70's and even then only in HD3/4 and 1 tons (yes there were exceptions) and good T400/205 combos are as scarce as chicken lips and very expensive unless you are very lucky. Problaby easier to find a divorced Dodge 205. Now we really opened a can o' worms!

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[Kenall]

if RB can only find a 205, than AA has a kit to bolt it to ANY th400 he decides on using...if he cant, AA has a kit to bolt a th400 to any d20 he might find. and he dont hve to mesh with the strange OE jeep adaptors...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'