Truck Avenger tuning tips?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • 78 Arizona Chief
    327 Rambler
    • Jan 06, 2004
    • 630

    Truck Avenger tuning tips?

    Everyone,
    I recently finished installing my S&S motor. I had the Holley Truck Avenger on the old motor and it ran fine. The new motor has a little higher compression and a different cam, and the carb need tuning. Bear in mind that I live in the Phoenix Valley, and the air is hot and thin.

    Anyway, I had a steady stream of black smoke coming from the tail pipe when cruising down the road. I reduced the size of the primary jet from the factory 68, to a 65. The smoke is now gone and the car feels better. However, when I hit the gas fairly hard from a stop, the truck hesitates really bad, sometimes throws a small backfire through the carb, and then takes off. This I assume is the accelorator pump. My question is, for those of you with a Truck Avenger, which position do you have the acc. pump on, 1 or 2? Secondly, did you change to a different accelorator pump cam? When the truck heisitates, there isn't a black puff that comes out the tailpipe, so I know it isn't too rich of a shot. Do I need to try a different accelorator pump all together?

    Finally this weekend I put enough miles on the jeep to feel comfotable taking the truck into higher rpm ranges. My base initial timing is 12-13 degerees BTDC, and the Z&M HEI dizzy puts approximately 16-17 degrees of mechanical advance for a total of about 29 degrees. What I noticed, is that the truck pulls nice and smooth through second gear until I hit about 65 mph (Second will go just past 70). At that speed, the truck surges and can not accelerate any faster until I shift into third. It feels like it hits a speed limiter and just kind of bucks and surges until the rpms drop down in third. I was always told that surging is a sign of a lean mixture, however, I have also read that the 89 secondaries are too large. For the record, I have never hear this engine ping yet, and it runs nice and cool out here in AZ 100 degree nights. What should I be looking at to solve the surging problem?

    Thanks for any insite.
    Kevin.
    \'78 Cherokee Chief - 360/TH400/QT Front high pinion 44/ARB/4.10-1, Rear 44/ARB/4.10-1, SOA w/Alcan front springs, Alcan full-leaf (w/shackle eye flipped) rears, custom bumpers, Multi-mount Warn XD9000i, more money into her than I want to admit. Dad purhcased new, still have window sticker. 310,000 miles.
  • PlasticBoob
    All Makes Combined
    • Jun 30, 2003
    • 4007

    #2
    Can you please post more info about the engine and cam? And is this a 670 or 770cfm Truck Avenger? I had some initial problems (off-idle stumble I couldn't get rid of) because I bought a 770cfm. Holley traded me a 670cfm (model 2) and things are perfect. i think 68 is good for the primaries. I am using the stock acc. pump and cam and have no problems...however, do look into changing the acc. pump discharge nozzle, that might help. As for the surging, how are your float levels?
    Rob
    1974 Cherokee S, fuel injected 401, Trans-am Red, Aussie locker 'out back'
    Click for video

    Comment

    • 78 Arizona Chief
      327 Rambler
      • Jan 06, 2004
      • 630

      #3
      PlasticBoob,
      Thanks for the reply, the carb is the 670 cfm version. As for the motor, it is a 360 .030 over with 9.0-1 hypereutectic pistons. The cam is an Elgin RV cam, and the heads are studded with Comp Cams chromoly roller rockers. Performer intake manifold. Floats are set a little below the site plugs, maybe 1/8 of an inch below site plug. Power valve is the stock 65 and I checked it last night when I changed the jets, and it is not blown.

      It is funny, the truck seems to run better for the first 1/2 hour or so. Once it has been on the freeway, off back in traffic, the power does not feel as good. When I shut off the truck, it occasionally will 'diesel' once. Regarding the jet size, I have taken the truck back to Manhattan Beach to visit my parents, and the truck definitly runs much better at sea level at 60 degrees.

      Thanks in advance for any other advice or input.
      Kevin.
      \'78 Cherokee Chief - 360/TH400/QT Front high pinion 44/ARB/4.10-1, Rear 44/ARB/4.10-1, SOA w/Alcan front springs, Alcan full-leaf (w/shackle eye flipped) rears, custom bumpers, Multi-mount Warn XD9000i, more money into her than I want to admit. Dad purhcased new, still have window sticker. 310,000 miles.

      Comment

      • Ristow
        • Jan 20, 2006
        • 17292

        #4
        many of the truck avengers have a 2.5 power valve-which is for a very lopey cam-if you're running a milder cam you need a 6.5-8.5 power valve.

        look on the choke horn,if it has a -2 after the list number(09670-2)it has the 2.5 p/v,it needs to be changed,that will cure your stumble and restore acceleration power.
        Originally posted by Hankrod
        Ristows right.................again,


        Originally posted by Fasts79Chief
        ... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.


        Originally posted by Fasts79Chief
        I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!

        It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...

        Comment

        • 78 Arizona Chief
          327 Rambler
          • Jan 06, 2004
          • 630

          #5
          Ristow,
          I had searched through all the previous truck avenger tuning threads and that was the first thing I checked. My instructions said that it had the 6.5 (65) power valve, and I verified that last night when I changed the primary jets. In the previous threads, people had gone down to a 82 secondary jet. I would do that, however, the wide-open throttle surging at high rpms indicates a lean condition so I have been told. However, I drive the jeep up to Big Bear Lake in Cali every year, and once I get up into the altitude, the truck would surge as well at half to full throttle regardless of rpms. I would definitely figure the truck is running very rich up there.

          Thanks for the replies.
          Kevin.
          \'78 Cherokee Chief - 360/TH400/QT Front high pinion 44/ARB/4.10-1, Rear 44/ARB/4.10-1, SOA w/Alcan front springs, Alcan full-leaf (w/shackle eye flipped) rears, custom bumpers, Multi-mount Warn XD9000i, more money into her than I want to admit. Dad purhcased new, still have window sticker. 310,000 miles.

          Comment

          • JeepsAndGuns
            AMC 4 OH! 1
            • Jul 18, 2003
            • 4586

            #6
            Are you sure its a problem with the carb and not with the fuel supply? When your flooring it and doing those long hard pulls, it may be sucking the fuel out of the bowls faster than the pump can fill them back up. When I re jetted mine I would drop both jets (main, and 2nd) the same number. I ended up useing 65pri and 86sec to keep my 401 from running rich. Check your plugs, the can tell you a lot about a engine. If they are white, your too lean, black, your too rich, you want a nice brown color to them. That means its running right.
            79 Cherokee Chief 401/T18/D20, MPFI fuel injection, hydroboost, otherwise stock.
            Future mods: Caddy 500/NV4500/NP205, HP D60 front D60 smooth botom rear, 5.13 gears, 35x12.50's on H1 beadlock wheels. Warn M12000 winch.
            93 Wrangler 4.6 stroker/AX15/NP231,SYE,CV, OME 2.5 lift, front hub conversion/big brakes, 31X10.50's Warn M10000 winch.

            Comment

            • 78 Arizona Chief
              327 Rambler
              • Jan 06, 2004
              • 630

              #7
              JeepsAndGuns,
              Thanks for the reply. I am running a Holley Red electic fuel pump. The Fuel filter with the return is down on the frame near the power steering box. This kept the number of fuel lines going to the engine to a minimum. It worked fine with the last motor. I did change that filter to rule it out. What would be a good way to check and see if the bowls were going empty? I am hesitant to say that is it because as soon as it shifts into third gear the problem is gone. The tranny has a shift kit in it and it shifts fast. I would imagine if the bowls were getting sucked dry, it would take a second or two to recover the two bowls and I would feel a little bit of hesitation once it was in third. But as soon as it hits third, it pulls hard again. I am thinking I will end up taking down to a shop called Automotive Diagnostic specialties where they can Dyno tune it with a 4-gas anylizer. There is a guy there that is very good with carbs. When I talked to him, he had mentioned that we could also try a 2-staged power valve as well.

              From what I gather, the vacuum advance is not operational at wide open throttle. So I don't think that my 29 degrees total advance is too much. I think once the jeep cools down today after work I will pull plugs to check, and will most likely take the secondary jet to 86 as well.

              Thanks again for the replies.
              Kevin.
              \'78 Cherokee Chief - 360/TH400/QT Front high pinion 44/ARB/4.10-1, Rear 44/ARB/4.10-1, SOA w/Alcan front springs, Alcan full-leaf (w/shackle eye flipped) rears, custom bumpers, Multi-mount Warn XD9000i, more money into her than I want to admit. Dad purhcased new, still have window sticker. 310,000 miles.

              Comment

              • JeepsAndGuns
                AMC 4 OH! 1
                • Jul 18, 2003
                • 4586

                #8
                That pump should be able to keep up. Its probably something else, I just remember hearing about the bowls running dry with a slow pump. Let us know what ya find out.
                79 Cherokee Chief 401/T18/D20, MPFI fuel injection, hydroboost, otherwise stock.
                Future mods: Caddy 500/NV4500/NP205, HP D60 front D60 smooth botom rear, 5.13 gears, 35x12.50's on H1 beadlock wheels. Warn M12000 winch.
                93 Wrangler 4.6 stroker/AX15/NP231,SYE,CV, OME 2.5 lift, front hub conversion/big brakes, 31X10.50's Warn M10000 winch.

                Comment

                • 78 Arizona Chief
                  327 Rambler
                  • Jan 06, 2004
                  • 630

                  #9
                  JeepsAndGuns,
                  I have been searching the internet reading as much as I can. It sounds like I will be increasing the pump discharge nozzle size. After that and decreasing the secondaries to 86 or so, I will drive it again. I need to first cure the off-idle stumble, and then I will look into the high rpm surging.

                  Has anyone else changed their pump discharge nozzle or even the size of the accelerator pump? and if so what sizes did you use?

                  Anyway, thanks for your suggestions... keep them coming.

                  Kevin.
                  \'78 Cherokee Chief - 360/TH400/QT Front high pinion 44/ARB/4.10-1, Rear 44/ARB/4.10-1, SOA w/Alcan front springs, Alcan full-leaf (w/shackle eye flipped) rears, custom bumpers, Multi-mount Warn XD9000i, more money into her than I want to admit. Dad purhcased new, still have window sticker. 310,000 miles.

                  Comment

                  • Josh D
                    360 AMC
                    • Jan 17, 2002
                    • 2873

                    #10
                    I'm out in AZ right now in the GW. I'm running 64 primary and 68 secondary with a 6.5 PV on a stock 360. It's running great! I love the added power from dropping 4K foot of elevation. It was pinging pretty good when I first got here (initially I had my advance at 16*). I backed it off a bit, but I don't have my timing light here, so don't really know where I'm at. But, it's running really well. I'm probably a bit lean on the secondaries, but 89 is way, way too rich for a 360.
                    '71 J2000 Gladiator
                    '95 YJ on Waggy axles
                    '80 911 Super Carrera

                    Comment

                    • Ralph Rogers
                      350 Buick
                      • Jul 29, 2003
                      • 1494

                      #11
                      So where are you at, Josh?
                      Ralph

                      Comment

                      • J10-401
                        304 AMC
                        • Oct 01, 2005
                        • 1951

                        #12
                        Are you sure the secondaries are even opening? Could be linkage bind or something rubbing on the vacuum plunger. IIRC they have a lock that blocks the secondaries from opening until the choke is full off. I always take stuff like that off. I'm not that stupid that I would buzz a stone-cold motor anyhow.
                        \'84 J10 Pioneer -- Edelbrock headers, Intake. MSD 8778 Ignition. MC 4-bl carb. 1970 "319" 51-CC heads. Comp cam. 401/727 B&M truck-shifter (floor), 3.73:1 gears. 31\"x12.5\"x15 ProComp A/T tires on M/T Classic II 15x10 wheels. Rear swaybar. Bucket seat conversion & redone interior. Interior roll bar and 4-point harnesses.

                        Comment

                        • Bob Barry
                          Jeep Doctor
                          • Apr 09, 2000
                          • 8335

                          #13
                          Originally posted by 78 Arizona Chief
                          JeepsAndGuns,
                          I have been searching the internet reading as much as I can. It sounds like I will be increasing the pump discharge nozzle size. After that and decreasing the secondaries to 86 or so, I will drive it again. I need to first cure the off-idle stumble, and then I will look into the high rpm surging.

                          Has anyone else changed their pump discharge nozzle or even the size of the accelerator pump? and if so what sizes did you use?

                          Anyway, thanks for your suggestions... keep them coming.

                          Kevin.
                          AMC's like a lot of initial advance to avoid stumbling; lighter centrifugal advance springs can help in that department, as long as they don't make it ping.

                          I ran into ping on my 360 when using a Holley 600cfm carb, so I upped the squirter size from a stock #25 to a #37, and I went with a blue pump-cam on the #2 screw setting. You may not need to go that extreme. That eliminated all bog for me, though.
                          1987 J-20
                          Video projects for my J-20 on Youtube

                          Comment

                          • J10-401
                            304 AMC
                            • Oct 01, 2005
                            • 1951

                            #14
                            "AMC's like a lot of initial advance to avoid stumbling; lighter centrifugal advance springs can help in that department, as long as they don't make it ping."

                            I learned that as a lad with my new AMC '68 AMX 390. After a Group-19 cam-kit, R4B Edelbrock intake, Holley 3310 carb and Hooker headers, it liked tons of advance and a big 50-cc accel-pump shot to be happy (good for 12's with crappy tires). But back then you could get 100-octance Chevron pump gas! And for 38-cents. God, I miss those days!
                            Last edited by J10-401; 08-17-2006, 09:15 PM.
                            \'84 J10 Pioneer -- Edelbrock headers, Intake. MSD 8778 Ignition. MC 4-bl carb. 1970 "319" 51-CC heads. Comp cam. 401/727 B&M truck-shifter (floor), 3.73:1 gears. 31\"x12.5\"x15 ProComp A/T tires on M/T Classic II 15x10 wheels. Rear swaybar. Bucket seat conversion & redone interior. Interior roll bar and 4-point harnesses.

                            Comment

                            • crawler16
                              230 Tornado
                              • Oct 09, 2006
                              • 1

                              #15
                              I tried just about every ones tips and i just couldn't get rid of that stumble. When i had my new gears installed(3.54 to 4.56) the stumble went away. Once in while i get a slight hesitation but no more stumble and back fire. Hope this was some help.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X