rear spring lift question

[backroadin']

Hey guys, this is my first post ever, so I hope I get it all right! I just bought a 73 wagoneer and it has a 4" lift kit w/ rear blocks. I'd like to get rid of the blocks and put 4"lift springs in the back. I'd rather not mess w/ the shackles or anything, just bolt in new springs. I'm having trouble finding just rear springs for this jeep, though. Does anyone know where I can get some? And if so, do I keep the SOA to get the 4" lift in the rear? Any advice on this and the process to complete it would be greatly appreciated - I havn't done a job like this before, so it's new ground.
P.S. When I bought this jeep, I quickly realized how little info was out there specific to these rigs. I happened on this site accidentally and haven't got much sleep since!!!!! This site is awesome, and I would like to thank it's creators and operators for providing such a wealth of info!! It makes owning and working on these jeeps that much more fun!!!!

[J10/J20 Project]

Welcome to the addiction.
Someone will chime in, I'm not to famillar with the post 73. but I think BJ's has lifts for them now. http://www.bjsoffroad.com/
Sorry I thought they where done.

[ August 15, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: J10/J20 Project ]

[Tad]

Welcome backroadin' ,
Yep your rear will stay SOA no matter what (well I guess you could do something really odd back there but I have never seen it done for a FSJ).
I was unaware that BJ's was done with the post mount rear lifts, if so that's great.
Your '73 falls in to the catagory we call rear post mounts, as opposed to the newer box hangers that started in '75 on some rigs and all by '76.

Couple of search terms to get you started:
Post Mount
Shackle Flip
Triangle Springs

You actually have 52" springs back there that happen to be the same as some Chevy truck springs, they just have different bushing for the post pressed in.
Skyjacker makes the 52" springs for the Chevy folks in 2,4,6 and 8" lift versions. A bit pricey and I can't recall anyone running them here yet.
I'm running the Triangle Spring, 2" Lift, Chevy replacments with a homemade 2" block and have had no problems, yet.
There is also a shackle inversion kit in the works from myself and RiverBeast for us but that's a bit down the road still and is designed for a newer D44 SOA up front and 7" of lift.

[J10/J20 Project]

Sorry, Not to missinform. I thought they where done with the early lifts.

[Tad]

I didn't look Paul, just figured it would be a big deal announcment, they might very well be done.

[backroadin']

Thanks for the info, guys. Apparently, whoever put on the front spring packs did some modifying, as I see they welded up some rear mounts about 3 - 4 inches back from the originals. Maybe the front springs weren't made for this jeep?? It seems to be stable, so I'll worry about the back ones first. One note on the front, should I invest in a drop pitman arm for the 4" lift? the current one appears stock. How much angle is too much for the drag link?

[Tad]

Drag link angle should be darn near the same as the tie rod.

Different springs up front?
Well, that odd stuff happens all the time.
Pic's will help us a lot.

The only difference in front springs between our years and the D44 years is about 2", it's very possible someone did that move, I'll be doing it soon on my '70 wag. Probably not a big deal.

[ August 15, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[ArmyLongBowTech]

sounds like someones been playing around with your SOA kit Tad..

[Tad]

Originally posted by ArmyLongBowTech:
sounds like someones been playing around with your SOA kit Tad..

Naw, believe me, there's not enough of us to make any $$ off of this.
It's just a great idea that got personal when RiverBeast and I got together.
BTW:
It's Todd's kit, not mine I just do the perches & ubolts.
Credit where credit is due.

[backroadin']

I've been reading through the archives and came across someone who said that putting a 52" spring back there is good, but reduces flex. Is it enough to make a big difference? I'd like to go the easiest way possible with springs, but I do plan to put on 33's and do light to moderate wheelin', (If there's such a thing!!) I need to replace the rear springs anyhow as it's "saggin" fairly bad. Will it stiffen it up too much to put on 4" lift/52" springs, or is the triangle 2" w/ 2" blocks a better way? As for the front, that must be what they did was put on different year springs. So I should just leave it alone up there or does that effect anything in the front that I need to worry about? And I do need a pitman arm..drag link is quite angled. Thanks for the help.

[Tad]

Well you have some really good questions, I'll give it my best shot.

In my opinion the more arch you get into the springs the less flex you will have. My setup is pretty stiff as it sits. Rides like a truck back there. If I have a couple hundred lbs in the back it helps loosen things up. So I assume if I went to a 4" spring back there I would have even more trade offs in ride quality.

You mention wanting 33's on there. Even with 4" of lift, running 33x12.5's I had to cut the fenders, both front and rear. You could run a narrower tire for sure but fender cutting in the rear opens up another project.

The drop pitman arm might become an issue also. The ones made for later FSJ's, although they bolt up fine on the steering box are not made for the older drag links. Someone probably has better info on this but here's what happened to me.
I had heard that the early '70's CJ DPA were what we needed but didn't have the $$ for one, I did aquire one from a later FSJ in a parts trade and decided to bolt it on. It fit the steering box fine but I had to custom (read ghetto) fab a connection between the DPA and my drag link. It's not pretty but it will work for a bit longer I guess. My problem is that the rear of the DPA hits my tie rod, just slightly on full compression. So this is not a real viable option.

Now since it appears someone has been working with you front springs, maybe they did some other mods up there?
Is it the original axle (Dana30)?
Drum brakes?
5 on 5.5 lug pattern?
If not, and it was upgraded, that might work in your favor.

[ August 16, 2004, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[backroadin']

Unfortunately, no. As far as I can see, it's all stock. Dana 30, drum brakes and the 5 lug pattern. Only mod is the leaf springs. This was a camp rig when I bought it, so I wonder how much effort they put into it. I did find a receipt buried in the back for a 4" lift kit for a 74-83 cherokee/wagoneer (box kit)from Trailmaster, and also for a 78-79 ford pitman arm w/p.s., whatever that means. Could have been for another rig, though. The pitman arm on there definetely has no drop to it. I hate to complicate things, but I have manual steering as well, and would really like to upgrade to power steering. I'm gonna check the archives for info on that. Also, do you think a 33x10.50 would clear better, or stick to 31's untill I'm ready to cut the fenders? Again, thank you for the advice!!

[Tad]

Ok, well the Ford DPA probably has nothing to do with anything, I've never heard anything about them working for us (we all use Saginaw boxes) in any way, there were some good tech stuff written by members (Kenall and others about this) but some of this was lost in a software upgrade a while back.

The 74-83 lift springs explain the moving of the front/rearward spring hanger and should be fine where they are (I'll be moving mine as soon as I find a set for the SOA).

Power & manual steering boxes that fit our rigs use the same mounting holes, easy upgrade and probably worth the time. You'll need the hardware and pump. I'm sure someone will have that bracketry and a pump too.

When it comes to tire buying (I'm not in the majority here so take this with a grain of salt).
I prefer to buy what I want and make them fit.
Lifting, cutting, none of that is a taboo for me, others feel this is wrong. I feel, it's your choice.

If I owned any really nice looking ('66 Panel would be nice) FSJ, I might feel otherwise.

[backroadin']

Well, this is becoming more fun by the minute!!!!! Glad to hear that the power steering conv. is easy, will get to scarfing up parts. As for the tires, that'll probably be the last thing I do, but I have a feeling I'll end up in your camp, as this will be a go truck and not a show truck!! Probably will resort to cutting rather than lifting more - just a budget issue. I'll also look into those CJ DPA's. One more thing, does a 4" lift require lenghtened driveshafts or a need to change driveshaft angle? Thank you SO much for the help, and I'm sure it won't be the last time I'll be needn' some!!!

[Tad]

The rear drive shaft depends on your existing one. I had to have one built since I had the old ball & trunion setup, they don't extend much and really hate flex.
I don't think the B&T setup was used anymore by '73, but I honestly don't know.

Here is a pic of the B&T setup, big PITA for lifts.