Alternator swap question

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  • Crankyolman
    350 Buick
    • Sep 27, 2017
    • 891

    #16
    Originally posted by babywag
    looks like delco si with custom front case half.

    instructions show charge indicator hookup


    Thank you Babywag, that is a tremendous help.
    '72 J4500

    Comment

    • PlasticBoob
      All Makes Combined
      • Jun 30, 2003
      • 4007

      #17
      Originally posted by Crankyolman
      Does anybody know if this one is like a SI or a CS? or will any Powermaster put out clean electricity? I have no clue about that stuff and really don't know if it is any better or worse than anything else. About the only thing I do know is they say it is 1-wire only so I don't know if it will let me use my dash light or not. I just sent an email to Powermaster to ask about that.
      Let us know what Powermaster says. I'm no electrical guy by any means, but I do know that electronic sensors and computers don't like any unsteady/changing/dirty (ripples) electricity. This might not show up at all, or might manifest itself in very strange ways at the worst possible times. I choose to error on the side of caution; it makes things easier to diagnose when tuning or when something gets out of whack.

      Will the SI work for fuel injection? Sure, I'm sure there are a lot of people running them with EFI. Is it ideal? No.

      It all comes down to whether you want "it starts and runs," or "designed to work with the system."

      I was just out firing up the Jeep today and recorded a quick video. Car electronics like to be between 13.7 and 14.7v I think. My ECU actually has a voltage compensation option, and the manual states:

      Battery Voltage Correction (ms/V) (BatFac) is the number of milliseconds that MegaSquirt-II adds to each fuel injection pulse to compensate for the slower opening of the injectors with lower supply voltages. Generally 0.10 ms/V or 0.2 ms/V is about right.
      So it's slightly important. Not to mention that the fuel pump might be putting out different pressures at lower voltages.

      https://youtu.be/lz-_Wgb-YA8

      As you can see, the CS-130 does great at low engine speeds. I'd like to see what an unmodified SI puts out at 550rpm.
      Last edited by PlasticBoob; 06-02-2019, 07:47 PM.
      Rob
      1974 Cherokee S, fuel injected 401, Trans-am Red, Aussie locker 'out back'
      Click for video

      Comment

      • ShagWagon
        350 Buick
        • Apr 10, 2016
        • 871

        #18
        We are the Largest Full Size Jeep Parts Seller in the World, Specialize in Grand Wagoneer & Full Size Cherokee! We ship Worldwide!


        I bought one from these guys. No problems 12k miles and 2 years or so.
        87 GW- Fitech EFI,Fitech FCC,Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift,BFG AT KO2 30",Dynamax muffler,MSD distributor,MSD 6al box,Blaster2 coil,ACCEL 8mm,.045 gap,Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake,Elgin perf cam,HD alum radiator,Powermaster 150alt,Alum HD H2O pump,Serhills tailgate harness,Cowl screen mod,Evil Twin grab handles,Rstep's custom AMC lock knobs

        Comment

        • babywag
          out of order
          • Jun 08, 2005
          • 10284

          #19
          Shag that one is for later models OP has a 72.

          Plasticboob voltage is set by regulator most will put out ~14.6v to get output amps need to be measured.
          Also keep in mind with the tiny pulley the alternator is spinning faster than engine rpm.
          Tony
          88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8

          Comment

          • ShagWagon
            350 Buick
            • Apr 10, 2016
            • 871

            #20
            Originally posted by babywag
            Shag that one is for later models OP has a 72.

            Plasticboob voltage is set by regulator most will put out ~14.6v to get output amps need to be measured.
            Also keep in mind with the tiny pulley the alternator is spinning faster than engine rpm.
            Yeah I could t find an older one but he can search for his specific one. They are really good alternators. I recommend to anyone the power master. Do they make one for a 72? I know the system is a little different but Overkill can be good. I dont know if MC parts stores sell them.

            Here they have a j truck one from 67 and a few more higher end ones.
            We are the Largest Full Size Jeep Parts Seller in the World, Specialize in Grand Wagoneer & Full Size Cherokee! We ship Worldwide!
            Last edited by ShagWagon; 06-03-2019, 01:21 PM.
            87 GW- Fitech EFI,Fitech FCC,Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift,BFG AT KO2 30",Dynamax muffler,MSD distributor,MSD 6al box,Blaster2 coil,ACCEL 8mm,.045 gap,Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake,Elgin perf cam,HD alum radiator,Powermaster 150alt,Alum HD H2O pump,Serhills tailgate harness,Cowl screen mod,Evil Twin grab handles,Rstep's custom AMC lock knobs

            Comment

            • Crankyolman
              350 Buick
              • Sep 27, 2017
              • 891

              #21
              Thank you for all your input everyone.


              Powemaster emailed me and confirmed what Babywag already showed, that is it does have provisions for an idiot light.


              After reading what everybody posted I emailed them back and asked about potential issues with the power and EFI. I expect I won't hear from them on that for another day or two but as it's looking I will likely go with the Powermaster 8-36141.


              Now as far as voltage at low idle I don't know how the SIs compare to the the DS at 550 RPM and probably never will because my idle is 700 RPM but I can tell you my little Motorola puts out 14+ at 700 RPM. Of course it's not the voltage that kills you it's the amperage and the amperage is where it is sorely lacking. Powermaster says their 150 amp Motorola replacement alternator puts out 100 amps at idle.


              I will wait to hear back from Powermasters and see what they say before I pull the trigger on anything.
              '72 J4500

              Comment

              • PlasticBoob
                All Makes Combined
                • Jun 30, 2003
                • 4007

                #22
                Sounds like you're all set. Enjoy!
                Rob
                1974 Cherokee S, fuel injected 401, Trans-am Red, Aussie locker 'out back'
                Click for video

                Comment

                • Crankyolman
                  350 Buick
                  • Sep 27, 2017
                  • 891

                  #23
                  OK got my answer from Powermaster this morning. Here is what the email says.


                  "Hi Cranky,

                  Thank you for the question. There is some truth in that argument, but only when comparing OE alternators. The largest difference besides the case and connector, is the stator windings. The OE 12SI uses a wave style winding, alternating the windings up and down around the stator. The OE CS130 uses a style of winding that loops back on itself, which has more overlap and greatly reduces inconsistencies in the AC voltage.

                  Powermaster 12SI and CS130 alternators use the later concentric circle style windings, bringing the SI alternators to the more modern design. For all intents and purposes, the voltage between the Powermaster 12SI and CS130 will look very similar on an oscilloscope if you were to scope the power output. When comparing old OE style alternators, the CS130 would be superior.

                  The 12SI style alternator is one of our most popular units. Powermaster has had many customers use the SI style alternators for fuel injected setups with no issue. All Powermaster 12v alternators are set for 14.8v from the factory, and will regulate the current up to the max available current to achieve the 14.8v. The 150A version of the 12SI outputs 100A at idle, 125A at cruising speeds, and 150A on the top end. These speeds correspond to 2400, 3600, and 7500 shaft RPM at the alternator.

                  With that said, our latest and greatest offering is our HPR style alternator, which uses tighter windings and an even cleaner power signal when scoped. In the real world, you will likely not notice a difference. Even when scoped, the Powermaster 12SI and CS130 will look very similar.

                  The 12SI, CS130, and HPR all share similar mounting dimensions, making it fairly straightforward to interchange different styles of alternators. The 8-36141 uses a 6.61” mount, hole to hole. The pivoting side of the mount has a 1” wide spool. This is known as a Motorola replacement. The standard GM uses the same 6.61” mount, hole to hole, but has a 2” spool mount on the pivoting side of the alternator."


                  So it looks like the powermaster SI is essentially the same internally as the CS. I guess I'm going to bite the bullet and place my order with Summit for a new alternator.
                  '72 J4500

                  Comment

                  • ShagWagon
                    350 Buick
                    • Apr 10, 2016
                    • 871

                    #24
                    I’d go cs130 because they said it would be superior.

                    I’d also check the part numbers at the FSJ websites to make sure theyre the same so they bolt right up or if it needs an adapter or something. They mentioned different mounts and holes etc....
                    87 GW- Fitech EFI,Fitech FCC,Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift,BFG AT KO2 30",Dynamax muffler,MSD distributor,MSD 6al box,Blaster2 coil,ACCEL 8mm,.045 gap,Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake,Elgin perf cam,HD alum radiator,Powermaster 150alt,Alum HD H2O pump,Serhills tailgate harness,Cowl screen mod,Evil Twin grab handles,Rstep's custom AMC lock knobs

                    Comment

                    • Crankyolman
                      350 Buick
                      • Sep 27, 2017
                      • 891

                      #25
                      Originally posted by ShagWagon
                      I’d go cs130 because they said it would be superior.

                      I’d also check the part numbers at the FSJ websites to make sure theyre the same so they bolt right up or if it needs an adapter or something. They mentioned different mounts and holes etc....


                      They actually sad "When comparing old OE style alternators, the CS130 would be superior" but the 12-SI they make is equal to the CS130.


                      The reason they mentioned different mounts was I had mentioned in my email to them that I couldn't find a CS that I wouldn't have to modify to fit my Motorola mount. They sell only 3 models of "Motorola replacement" alternators, the 100 amp 8-46101, the 150 amp 8-46141 and a custom order marine/offroad version of the 8-46101. Those are the only ones they make that will require no modifications to fit my truck.
                      Last edited by Crankyolman; 06-04-2019, 01:12 PM.
                      '72 J4500

                      Comment

                      • ShagWagon
                        350 Buick
                        • Apr 10, 2016
                        • 871

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Crankyolman
                        They actually sad "When comparing old OE style alternators, the CS130 would be superior" but the 12-SI they make is equal to the CS130.


                        The reason they mentioned different mounts was I had mentioned in my email to them that I couldn't find a CS that I wouldn't have to modify to fit my Motorola mount. They sell only 3 models of "Motorola replacement" alternators, the 100 amp 8-46101, the 150 amp 8-46141 and a custom order marine/offroad version of the 8-46101. Those are the only ones they make that will require no modifications to fit my truck.
                        That’s why I spend a little more and buy at the specialty Jeep website. They’ve already did the research whether or not it will fit correctly. Can at least use as a reference to double check if it’s cheaper somewhere else.

                        Ya hope anyways lol..
                        87 GW- Fitech EFI,Fitech FCC,Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift,BFG AT KO2 30",Dynamax muffler,MSD distributor,MSD 6al box,Blaster2 coil,ACCEL 8mm,.045 gap,Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake,Elgin perf cam,HD alum radiator,Powermaster 150alt,Alum HD H2O pump,Serhills tailgate harness,Cowl screen mod,Evil Twin grab handles,Rstep's custom AMC lock knobs

                        Comment

                        • Crankyolman
                          350 Buick
                          • Sep 27, 2017
                          • 891

                          #27
                          Originally posted by ShagWagon
                          That’s why I spend a little more and buy at the specialty Jeep website. They’ve already did the research whether or not it will fit correctly. Can at least use as a reference to double check if it’s cheaper somewhere else.

                          Ya hope anyways lol..
                          Cheaper isn't really as much of an issue as customer service at the specialty jeep websites. I've read about too many issues with team grand wagoneer so will not buy from them. BJs takes extra time to ship and if something is wrong you have to spend hours arguing with them and prove beyond a doubt there is a problem before they will agree to take it back and when I bought from Bulltear they lied about shipping my parts and didn't respond to emails until a month after they said the part was shipped and I threatened a charge back. That's when they finally actually shipped the part and sent me an email that said nothing but "It went out late". About the only company who carries parts for my truck that I have been completely happy with has been Partsdude4x4.



                          I like supporting the little guy but that little guy needs to provide the customer service to make me feel like I'm actually a valued customer rather than an inconvenience. Now, thanks to all you guys here, I feel I have done my research on this and know which models will fit and work best on my truck. Jegs, Summit racing and BJs all have the correct Motorola replacement alternator for exactly the same price. Jegs and summit ship it free. I've ordered things from Summit in the morning which were shipped from Nevada or somewhere like that and they actually arrived the same day and I can ship it back for any reason at all without having to send emails that never get answered, wait for them to come back from a week off, call them on the phone, be told they have been selling that part for years and there is nothing wrong with it, take pictures of the problem, send that to them, wait for a response, send the part back, wait another week or two for the replacement part, call them again because the replacement part is also wrong, then finally get a refund and have to buy it somewhere else anyway. (Yes that whole scenario has taken place with one of those specialty jeep websites who have supposedly already done the research)


                          I live in Des Moines Wa, BJs is in Gig Harbor which is about 30 miles away. If they were willing to let me drive over there and pick it up I'd drive over this morning, pick it up, drive home and have it installed this afternoon but they are not willing to let me do that so to buy from them takes longer to get than from Summit. So I will buy from Summit.


                          I really appreciate all the help I have received on this matter and don't think I would have gotten this all figured out without it, so thank you everyone.
                          '72 J4500

                          Comment

                          • Crankyolman
                            350 Buick
                            • Sep 27, 2017
                            • 891

                            #28
                            Thought I'd update you guys on this.


                            This morning I installed my brand new Powermaster 8-46141 Motorola replacement alternator.


                            I would like to say it was easy and a smooth installation but it wasn't really all that smooth. When I first tried to put the alternator on the lower bolt wouldn't line up so I had to remove the bracket, mount the alternator to the bracket and then reinstall it. That was a pain but it is now installed and operating.





                            I went with the 150 amp alternator because some day I hope to add air conditioning and heated seats but if I were to do it again I think I would opt for the 100 amp model because the 150 amp on the '72 is a very tight fit.








                            I don't think that would be the case in a '73 or later model or perhaps if I reinstall the original oil filter mount but because my alternator sets back 1/4 inch closer to the engine than later models it is an issue. I think in the future I will get an adjuster bracket off something else and mount it in a way to move the alternator out a couple more inches.


                            On start up and on the test drive it works real nice. Plenty of voltage and there was no difference between nothing on and everything including the high beams on. For the past couple weeks I've had to drive to work with just the parking lights on because any more than that and voltage would slowly drop the whole way to work. I don't think that will be a problem anymore.
                            '72 J4500

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