Opinions needed on emissions questions...Denver area

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  • Strode
    1st Chair, Cowbell
    • Nov 08, 2011
    • 2292

    Opinions needed on emissions questions...Denver area

    Hello all. I'm well into tearing apart my '82 Cherokee for a full restoration. I've rebuilt the transfer case so far, and have started stripping everything down for the body work and painting.

    I will be rebuilding the 727 and the 360, if only to get it to stop puking fluid all over my floor. It's never run under it's own power for me.

    (I'll be posting a build thread when I get far enough along)

    So, when I've started studying the engine, all the emissions stuff and vacuum hosing is downright depressing. I can't believe all this stuff works in harmony to produce a good running machine. I'm lucky that I believe it's all 100% stock right now, and nothing has been removed. Except for the mech fuel pump was taken out and there's an electric now.







    I'm trying to hack out a master plan for the engine & driveline, and I need to know what everybody's experiences are with emissions testing on their FSJ.

    I have to pass Denver area emissions. In looking at the Clean Air Colorado website, the 1982 are the 1st year for rolling on the dyno tests. All I can find for limits are these:

    1982 & Newer Light-Duty Passenger Vehicle Limits

    Year CO HC NOx
    1982 45.0 3.5 5.0


    1982 & Newer Light-Duty Truck Limits

    Year CO HC NOx
    1982 65.0 6.0 6.0

    I'm assuming a FSJ would be a light duty truck? I think a good running engine would pass those limits without 80% of the crap that's on the engine now.

    Here's my questions:
    1) If everything is kosher (I rebuild the carb, replace all the vacuum hoses, do the ignition upgrades, etc) does this setup with all the stock emissions work well?
    2) I will keep the catalytic converter obviously, and the air pump. Can I get a non-EGR manifold like an Edelbrock and a Holley 4V and still pass emissions? What if any of these vacuum hoses, air cleaner lid vacuum traps, charcoal canister and other stuff can I get rid of to simplify everthing? Can I meet those standards with aftermarket parts?

    I don't need to pull stuff off for the hell of it. If if works well I'll keep it, but....holy cow. What goes where?

    Ideally, I'd like to go with a Holley 4v, a different manifold...and get rid of most of this stuff. Does anybody in the front range area know how far the emissions inspectors visually check under the hood, other than the obvious stuff like the CatConv and the air-pump?

    Thanks for the help.
    Brad
    (*Allowed to post while failed 'I am not a Bot' test results are under appeal)

    My build thread: 1982 Cherokee Laredo

    Ristow's Bunker

    Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association
  • flying_squirrel
    232 I6
    • Nov 14, 2010
    • 93

    #2
    check it out if you haven't already. The guy who wrote it is a moderator on this forum. His explanation is very straight forward and informative.
    "Jepe" 1985 Grand Wagoneer- Sold.

    "New Jepe" 1988 Grand Wagoneer. Driver.

    Comment

    • FSJ Guy
      • Mar 20, 2005
      • 10061

      #3
      That's a good link. With all the devices hooked up and working correctly, FSJ's are supposed to pass easily. The also includes a well tuned carb.

      You will want to retain all the emissions control devices. They may not necessarily check for them, but when working, they WILL reduce emissions.
      Ethan Brady
      1987 Grand Wagoneer, slightly longer than stock.

      www.bigscaryjeep.com

      Don't mess with me. I once killed a living hinge.

      Comment

      • Blake
        304 AMC
        • Dec 22, 2005
        • 2123

        #4
        Good luck with it!

        I 100% recommend you change at least one thing and that is too install a "TFI" ignition system. It's basically a new much stronger coil along with a new distributor cap and wires. It's a 'tune up' and should be done to help it run better and pass emissions easier.

        I posted pics and part numbers in my Goofy build thread. Link in my signature. You will also find emissions information in there.
        Please come on over to http://fsjnetwork.com/forum and have a look.

        Comment

        • Strode
          1st Chair, Cowbell
          • Nov 08, 2011
          • 2292

          #5
          Originally posted by flying_squirrel
          check it out if you haven't already. The guy who wrote it is a moderator on this forum. His explanation is very straight forward and informative.
          http://tc.wagoneer.net/sblog/static...._vac_emissions
          Thanks for the replies.

          Squirrel, that's a wonderful link, thanks alot.

          Blake, the TFI upgrade is definitely on the list. I have your's bookmarked.

          FSJ, I was really hoping to change the carb/manifold to a Holley/Edelbrock. Alot of the emissions stuff is built into that Motorcraft carb. I hoped I'm not doomed to keep it.
          I also think the Edelbrocks I have looked at (I haven't researched too much) are non-EGR.

          I love me the sound of some secondaries opening up.

          I don't want to pull it all off just for the sake of removing it.....I just don't see how I can keep all of that stuff and do what I want.
          Does anybody have a formula for what's really important to keep?
          I know the air pump and the cats for sure.
          Brad
          (*Allowed to post while failed 'I am not a Bot' test results are under appeal)

          My build thread: 1982 Cherokee Laredo

          Ristow's Bunker

          Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

          Comment

          • Jlamb
            327 Rambler
            • Nov 08, 2003
            • 568

            #6
            Without an EGR it may be very hard to pass NOx.
            1979 J20,360,TH400,QT

            Comment

            • tgreese
              • May 29, 2003
              • 11682

              #7
              First, it's unlikely that you will pass smog inspection with a replacement carburetor and manifold. The only way you would pass is if the inspection in your area does not include a visual inspection, and only a tailpipe sniffer test. If you tune the engine properly and add your 4V carb, and there is no visual, you might pass. In that case, you'd probably need the help of a shop or mechanic with an exhaust gas analyzer so that you could get some feedback about how your tuning changes with the new carburetor are affecting the emissions.

              There is a 50-states legal EFI conversion available for this car from Howell. When you install that, you remove most of the vacuum plumbing associated with the emissions devices. Not cheap though, about $1500 last I looked. But it will improve cold-weather starting and overall driveability a lot, and fuel economy a little. Since you're putting a lot of effort and money into this car, it might be worthwhile investigating.

              And +1 with Jlamb, unlikely you'll pass NOx without an EGR valve. Even Howell retains the EGR valve.

              For the factory devices, the place to start is the vacuum diagram from the factory manual. Did you buy the factory manual? I'm fairly familiar with what's on the '82 360, and it looks to me like it's all there and in good shape. Here's the diagram from '81, which is pretty close: http://oljeep.com/gw/vac/81/81_360_4...DCool_1600.jpg Doesn't show the TAC devices, or vapor recovery unfortunately.
              Tim Reese
              Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
              Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
              Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
              GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
              ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

              Comment

              • SnowShoe
                350 Buick
                • Feb 24, 2008
                • 1296

                #8

                Comment

                • Strode
                  1st Chair, Cowbell
                  • Nov 08, 2011
                  • 2292

                  #9
                  Thanks for the info, everybody.

                  Tgreese, so far I've been working off the manual posted on the oljeeps page, which is great to have, but it's kinda difficult to go thru the pages. I think I might spring $90 for the one's from BJs.

                  I was wondering about fuel injection. Do you get some sort of emissions certification paperwork if you buy a Howell FI system to show the inspectors?

                  I've wondered how they deal with cars that have an LS engine swaps. It's obviously cleaner running, but it isn't stock.....do they pass those?
                  Brad
                  (*Allowed to post while failed 'I am not a Bot' test results are under appeal)

                  My build thread: 1982 Cherokee Laredo

                  Ristow's Bunker

                  Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

                  Comment

                  • Blake
                    304 AMC
                    • Dec 22, 2005
                    • 2123

                    #10
                    Originally posted by tgreese
                    First, it's unlikely that you will pass smog inspection with a replacement carburetor and manifold.
                    Not true in Colorado.

                    The 'envirotest' employees typically don't know anything about emissions and certainly don't know anything about what came stock in a particular car.

                    You can swap in any type of intake/carb you want. As long as it has an air pump and cat, it will pass the visual inspection.

                    However, if you swap in a LS engine, they will FAIL you because it doesn't have an air pump.
                    Please come on over to http://fsjnetwork.com/forum and have a look.

                    Comment

                    • Strode
                      1st Chair, Cowbell
                      • Nov 08, 2011
                      • 2292

                      #11
                      Blake, do you have do the test in Longmont? They've expanded it, haven't they?
                      Brad
                      (*Allowed to post while failed 'I am not a Bot' test results are under appeal)

                      My build thread: 1982 Cherokee Laredo

                      Ristow's Bunker

                      Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

                      Comment

                      • Blake
                        304 AMC
                        • Dec 22, 2005
                        • 2123

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Strode182
                        Blake, do you have do the test in Longmont? They've expanded it, haven't they?
                        Yes, hence the reference to my build thread.
                        Please come on over to http://fsjnetwork.com/forum and have a look.

                        Comment

                        • tgreese
                          • May 29, 2003
                          • 11682

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Strode182
                          I was wondering about fuel injection. Do you get some sort of emissions certification paperwork if you buy a Howell FI system to show the inspectors?
                          You get a CARB (California Air Resources Board) sticker for under the hood. And the system is set up to pass the tailpipe test.

                          May be true about the inspectors in CO. But you'd only pass if they are incompetent. You'd want to make it look like a factory install, and you'll definitely need an EGR valve or the NOx will be too high to pass.

                          Look at discussion about the Howell kit, and you'll find the "after" vacuum diagram that may be helpful.
                          Tim Reese
                          Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
                          Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
                          Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
                          GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
                          ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

                          Comment

                          • Eric S.
                            258 I6
                            • Jun 02, 2002
                            • 449

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Blake
                            However, if you swap in a LS engine, they will FAIL you because it doesn't have an air pump.
                            What if you install an electric one?
                            1989 Grand Wagoneer -- FOR SALE

                            Comment

                            • Jlamb
                              327 Rambler
                              • Nov 08, 2003
                              • 568

                              #15
                              They will only be looking for air and a cat on your vehicle. Go ahead and change the carb and they will never know if you removed the EGR or other components.

                              I ran my 79 as an 82 (so I could tune it to the IM240 run, 79 is only a tailpipe test) I do not have an EGR and I did pass but I am sure the reason is because it is running rich. I have a 1406 Edlebrock with 89 secondary jets and 92 primary. The limit is 65 grams for CO and just came under at 62gpm. This was the only area that was high. It is nice that 82 yr trucks have such liberal standards. For reference they are 6gpm for HC, 65 gpm CO, 6 gpm NOx. If I could get it to run a cleaner, CO would drop and NOx would raise.
                              1979 J20,360,TH400,QT

                              Comment

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