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-   -   York compressor failure.. Brand freaking new unit! (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=184110)

Beach_Dude 11-14-2017 02:31 PM

York compressor failure.. Brand freaking new unit!
 
So, after doing everything to a Tee, brand new EVERYTHING, including a Brand Freaking NEW York compressor, not a rebuild, All new custom hoses, new evaporator, Evap switch, condenser & Dyer, this happens...



I'm almost down to the second can of R12, gauge is high, around 50PSI on the low side because I'm charging, almost 4 - 8 OZ of freon more to go to get to factory specs for the compressor and unit, then all of a sudden, BOOM!

Cover my face, fear set in, shut the motor down instantly, and there's dye ALL OVER THE BACK SIDE OF THE UNIT!

No hoses blown, nothing. So, it's either the rear seal of the compressor or the washer on the oil drain plug failed.

I AM SO PISSED OFF RIGHT NOW!!!

bkilby 11-14-2017 05:51 PM

The York has a blow off valve in the rear. It blows when there's too much head pressure.

Beach_Dude 11-14-2017 05:53 PM

So, just clean the dye off and it's good?

Probably too wet on the charge could cause that?

bkilby 11-14-2017 05:58 PM

In case you want to know more about Yorks.....


http://tccimfg.com/wp-content/upload...014-12-16P.pdf

bkilby 11-14-2017 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach_Dude
So, just clean the dye off and it's good?

Probably too wet on the charge could cause that?


Too much freon maybe. And don't add freon with oil. New Yorks come with oil already. Wouldn't hurt to check the oil level though.

babywag 11-14-2017 07:48 PM

That’s not what happened to mine...
Mine was DOA, wouldn’t build pressure and NOISY.
Metal in oil when I drained it as well.

Did you flush/check new hoses? Mine had debris in them, would have easily plugged the expansion valve had I not found. Little pieces of hose(s) from cutting/installing hose ends?

Beach_Dude 11-14-2017 10:34 PM

Connected everything back up and ran a test on pressure at idle.

Roughly 80+ on low side

Roughly 90+ on high side.

Compressor officially dead?

Curly5759 11-15-2017 08:54 PM

I had a brand new York compressor fail after only 20 miles. I had drained and refilled the compressor with the correct type/amount of oil. After 20 miles it was still cooling but the unit was knocking badly. Had to replace it. Since then all is good.

Beach_Dude 11-16-2017 10:22 PM

All AC people, would 80+ on low side and roughly 90+ on high side be a dead compressor?

Because I'll do another swap this weekend if needed.

Somebody chime in.

babywag 11-17-2017 09:01 AM

How exactly are you charging system?

Beach_Dude 11-20-2017 09:33 PM

How am I charging the system..?

I mean, like step by step or the method?

High and low sides connected, cans of r12, and filling system until specific levels are reached. :P

I'm probably going to replace the high side service valve(s) now sice the high side unit leaks like made!

I've found that earlier mustang parts are identical.

Does anybody know if the suction and high side both use the same size diameter flare fitting?

Obviously I'm going to find out, but need to wait till I get the system evacuated.

If anyone has a direct part reference, shout it out!

FSJunkie 11-21-2017 01:42 AM

A couple things come to my mind.

One: I have never seen a pressure relief valve built into a York compressor. I've seen them on the bottom of receiver/dryers, but not on the compressors. Even so, those relief valves are set for 400-600 PSI.

Two: You know the system has to be evacuated for at least 20 minutes to remove all the air before you charge it with refrigerant, right? A system containing refrigerant and air won't work. You need refrigerant only.

Three: 80-90 PSI on both the suction and discharge sides of the compressor is normal when the system is not running. The pressure of a non-running system is determined by the ambient temperature, not the charge level. A running system will be around 20 PSI on the suction side and 150 PSI on the discharge side, depending on a lot of things.

Four: The most accurate way to charge one of these systems is by watching the sight glass on the line between the receiver/dryer and the expansion valve. The glass needs to be clear (liquid only). Any bubbles mean the system is either low or contains air. These expansion valve systems are VERY tolerant on their charge level. Basically so long as there is enough refrigerant to maintain a constant flow of liquid to the expansion valve and not so much refrigerant that the receiver/dryer is completely full, then it will work perfectly. There is no "It cools slightly worse because it is low on charge" with these. They basically either cool to full capacity, or don't cool at all.

Beach_Dude 11-21-2017 10:10 AM

Would it be safe to assume that the AC clutch being engaged and turning, with standard York Compressor charging noises would indicated that the compressor is on or could it still be off?

:rolleyes:

Still curious on the diameter of the flare side differences between the high and low side service valves though... Totally should have taken note on that when I had them made. :banghead:

Beach_Dude 11-22-2017 10:16 PM

Just in case anyone is interested, here's a supplier for a ton of service valves and the two I purchased:

R12 Tube O-Ring Backseat Valve With # 8 Male Flare Thread
https://www.apairinc.com/shopping/pr....aspx?i=129768

R12 Tube O-Ring Backseat Valve With # 10 Male Flare Thread
https://www.apairinc.com/shopping/pr....aspx?i=129777

TexasJ10 11-23-2017 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach_Dude
Would it be safe to assume that the AC clutch being engaged and turning, with standard York Compressor charging noises would indicated that the compressor is on or could it still be off?

:rolleyes:

Still curious on the diameter of the flare side differences between the high and low side service valves though... Totally should have taken note on that when I had them made. :banghead:


I'm not sure what you are asking here. From your post below you identify the valves you purchased as being low side #10 (5/8"), and high side #8 (1/2").

TexasJ10 11-23-2017 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach_Dude
Would it be safe to assume that the AC clutch being engaged and turning, with standard York Compressor charging noises would indicated that the compressor is on or could it still be off?

:rolleyes:

Still curious on the diameter of the flare side differences between the high and low side service valves though... Totally should have taken note on that when I had them made. :banghead:


I'm not sure what you are asking here. From your post below you identify the valves you purchased as being low side #10 (5/8"), and high side #8 (1/2").

Beach_Dude 11-23-2017 11:57 AM

Well, I'm replacing the compressor because it isn't working.

But my question was what the diameter of the flare fittings were, which after getting the system evacuated at my local ac shop, discovered they were #10 and #8.

Since there's no replacement or NOS for jeep service valves, I posted what I found above which appears to be a direct and interchangeable part.

I'll keep you guys posted on it.

TexasJ10 11-23-2017 06:35 PM

Thanks. This has been a good thread

Beach_Dude 12-27-2017 12:43 PM

Oh the :o:o:o:oing joys of rebuilding this :o:o:o:oing AC system.

Everything is officially new. EVERYTHING!!!

While charging, we weighed in freon at 2.25lb, and there were bubbles. So, we upped it to 2.4 . No bubbled.

But now it seems the brand new freaking expansion valve isn't working or there's a minor clog somewhere in the brand :o:o:o:oing new system.

Regardless, it's winter, I'm not worrying about it for a few months and blah. I'll just tackle it every so often.

As for the service valves, FREAKING AWESOME-SAUCE FIND!!! They matched the original factory service valves to a T!!! So stoked...

However, I did remove the quick-disconnect internals and will order replacements that were used on the original Ford Mustangs, same piece if I'm not mistaken. Anyone else just delete the quick disconnect internals?

FSJunkie 12-27-2017 11:58 PM

Moisture in the system will freeze and plug the expansion valve. Extremely high discharge pressure and extremely low suction pressure indicates a clogged system.

A bad expansion valve can destroy the compressor if the valve is stuck fully open. It will flow way too much refrigerant into the evaporator. The refrigerant leaving the evaporator will still be liquid when it enters the compressor and this will blow the valves out of the compressor. It literally shatters the hardened steel valves into little pieces of shrapnel that careen around inside the aluminum compressor and absolutely destroy it. I lost one compressor that way.

Seriously forget about charging it by weight. Different receiver/dryers have different capacities and you've replaced the receiver/dryer. Get a sight glass on the discharge line between the receiver/dryer and the expansion valve and charge it until the bubbles go away. You'll ned that sight glass in the future because your system will have a slow leak and need topped off every year or so. You can't top-off by weight. I have three of these A/C systems in my garage and restored and service them all myself. Trust me on this.

SJTD 12-28-2017 10:05 AM

I have read in forums on the web that the new systems don't have sight glasses because a 134a system will still have bubbles when properly charged.

Being the cynical fellow that I am I wonder if they were eliminated to keep people from maintaining the level on a system with a slow leak.

I guess I'll find out if I ever get my Wag running with a Vintage Air system. The drier has a sight glass and I intend to keep the stock one on the fender. VA's instructions say to charge it with humptyump pounds.

A do wonder about this since they have no idea what it's going into and how long the lines will be.

FSJunkie 12-29-2017 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJTD
I have read in forums on the web that the new systems don't have sight glasses because a 134a system will still have bubbles when properly charged.

That's weird based on my experience. I've converted all my systems to R134a and the only time they have bubbles in the sight glass was if they were low on charge or had air in the system from either not being evacuated correctly or if the charge hoses were not purged of air before being connected.

SJTD 12-29-2017 10:29 AM

Didn't make sense to me either. One of the fucfuncfunctions of the receiver/drier is an accumulator that should be partially full of liquid. The pickup is at the bottom so there is liquid leaving it.

Only thing I could come up with was maaaaaybe the density of the gas was so close to that of the liquid that it didn't separate well. Never got around to looking into that possibility yet.

ProTouring442 12-31-2017 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJTD
I have read in forums on the web that the new systems don't have sight glasses because a 134a system will still have bubbles when properly charged.

Being the cynical fellow that I am I wonder if they were eliminated to keep people from maintaining the level on a system with a slow leak.

I guess I'll find out if I ever get my Wag running with a Vintage Air system. The drier has a sight glass and I intend to keep the stock one on the fender. VA's instructions say to charge it with humptyump pounds.

A do wonder about this since they have no idea what it's going into and how long the lines will be.


It's actually true. My wife's 300ZX has a sight glass, and with the system properly evacuated and refilled to 70% of what it held with R12 (or whatever it actually is, I forget), there are still bubbles. It has to do with 134A rate of expansion when heated, if I recall correctly. In any case, top the system off to a clear sight glass and it will over pressure and blow the relief valve.

And, of course, it isn't actually air, it's refrigerant in its gaseous state.

As to the Vintage Air instructions, you'll have to play around with the charge until you get it just right, but their estimate will be very close.

Beach_Dude 06-10-2019 11:19 PM

So, I really don't know how many times I've rebuilt this damn system. It's just ridiculous.

This time I went to a highly reputable AC shop that builds custom ac setups for classics, etc. He told me that I should just rebuild it all again, new condenser and driyer since he believed it was clogged.

After everything was back together, vacuumed it, let it sit over night and sealed. When taking it in, he verified vacuum, ran again then charged. He found a minor leak in the compressor, but said it might take a year or two till 8 notice it.

He did mention that the compressor was weak since the suction side was showing 40 psi.

All in all, $240 of r12 and $200 in labor, I accept it.

But then he was showing me a few things under the hood and I asked if the frost formung on the suction service valve is/was acceptable. He quickly rushed to the temp switch and turned it down half way saying that I shouldn't go lower than that since it would cause flowback of freon.

Ok, I got it.

A day later the system starts acting intermittently AGAIN!!!! FML!!!!

So, the only thing I'm coming up with is that every expansion valve I've bought and used is from the same retailer. Same brand, etc. I have the bulb/coil crimped on the low side of the evaporator and taped off with insulation tape.

I've got the feeling that the expansion valves are not only allowing too much freaon to flow through, higher PSI on suction but also that the freezing service valve is a sign that liquid freon is slowly killing my compressors.

Intermittent flow shows a complete shut off of the valve, the freon liquid sits in the sight glass, no flow, etc.

Murray from O'Riellys. I know.. I know. 4 seasons is better, carid is better, blah blah blah... They're all made in the same plant.

I've got the feeling that these are all junk.

Also, when the system is cycling normally, I notice that the freon flows a little backward in the sight glass. Can this be a sign that the compressor's valves aren't prevently backflow during cycle?

Does anyone have ANY IDEAS?!?!?!

I've spent way too much time 9n this and I've concluded that I'm just going to buy a tank and recovery machine since I've spent three times that already with ac shops.

Help!!!!

FSJunkie 06-11-2019 02:36 AM

The expansion valve is flowing far too much refrigerant. It thinks the evaporator outlet line is hot so it's metering lots of refrigerant into the evaporator. This often happens when the thermal sensing bulb of the expansion valve is not properly installed. It needs to be fastened tightly directly to the metal outlet tube of the evaporator and wrapped with insulation. The expansion valve itself must be mounted to the inlet of the evaporator and refrigerant must flow through it in the proper direction.

Otherwise it's a bad expansion valve, which is very rare. There is no such thing as an R12 or an R134a expansion valve. They work the same and are calibrated the same. Most of my cars are running their original 40+ year old expansion valves that still work fine. If your current expansion valve is installed correctly and continues to malfunction, get another one or get your original one back on.

In any case, it's going to rapidly explode your compressor if you keep running it like this.

Remember how I told you about exploding my own compressor? It was because the thermal bulb had come disconnected from the suction line. The expansion valve locked itself fully open in response.

The whole, "R12 systems converted to R134a require only 80% charge of R134a" thing stands for C.C.O.T. systems, AKA orifice tube. This is not that kind of system. Expansion valve systems don't care much about their charge level so long as there is enough liquid refrigerant inside the receiver/dryer to keep the pickup tube sumberged.

babywag 06-11-2019 08:31 AM

Sadly likely due to the crap parts they sell us.
When I redid mine a defective new expansion valve killed my compressor.
$200+ in more parts and my labor and it worked until the brand new compressor took a dump.
Exchanged it for a replacement and it worked flawlessly for over a decade.

Sorry not much help but just because the stuff is new means little these days.
Same deal on my Caprice, brand new compressor crap right out if box. Had to replace it 2nd time. Brand new ACDelco condenser had wrong line size and the orifice tube wouldn't fit. Returned for made in China that fit horribly but got job done @ least.

New parts are a roll of the dice these days:mad:

Beach_Dude 06-11-2019 08:44 AM

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...Q3eVZZR2pkZktR

The bulb is connection to the suction side of the evaperator, which should be closing the expansion valve is freezing is detected, but seems it isn't.

Also, is there supposed to be backflow of refrigerant when the AC cycle is off?

Beach_Dude 06-12-2019 05:56 PM

Well, I'm doing another compressor and expansion valve.

Going with 4 Seasons on the Expansion valve since I can't seem to find a motorcraft it ac delco cross match part unless someone knows the original manuafacturer?

Unfortunately I'm still gonna use the Murray compressor since I can get it warrantied out.

I ordered a RobinAir RG3: https://www.amazon.com/Robinair-RG3-.../dp/B00NMOYPVG

Also got a tank for $75.

All in all costing about $500 after tax. Basically, I've spend a small fortune on ac shops just for recovery and charging.

Spoke to a commercial HVAC buddy and he mentioned that I can simply switch the lines around and charge, opposite of recovery.

I'm going to connect it all up after switch, open all the valves, then run a vacuum on the whole system from the opposite port. I can use the second service valve to then close the vacuum then charge the system.

Chime in anyone... I'm rebuilding for like the fifth time next week.

Good to go?

bkilby 06-13-2019 07:54 AM

Wow. You sure have had a lot of problems with your AC. Kinda scares me as I'm getting ready to install AC in mine. Lol.


I can't help much on charging your AC but I know a thing or two about York compressors. Question for you. Is the York standing up or laying down? If laying down, is the suction port on top? The compressors come both ways, just making sure you're putting the correct one in.

Beach_Dude 06-13-2019 08:07 AM

Suction's going the right way.

As for the top, I believe it's the top port, but I'd have to look to see.

FSJunkie 06-14-2019 01:42 AM

Does your expansion valve have two capillary tubes coming off it? One is a temperature sensing tube and the other is a pressure sensing tube. Both connect to the evaporator outlet line. The temperature tube just clamps to the outlet line but the pressure tube actually connects to it with an SAE flare fitting. Not all expansion valves have the pressure sensing tube, but the ones that have it require it to be hooked up.

Beach_Dude 06-15-2019 05:47 PM

Yes, it's the factory air setup, so there's both on mine.

Wouldn't there be some massive leak that would empty the system in a matter of seconds or wouldn't even accept a charge if a hose wasn't connected? LOL

FSJunkie 06-16-2019 11:42 PM

Not if it was plugged off and bypassed, which is a seriously common theme on old cars. "I don't understand this, so I'm going to bypass it."

Not that you'd do that, of course. I make no accusation towards you. I just run the bases of things possibly done to your vehicle over the years by people other than yourself.

Beach_Dude 06-19-2019 04:29 AM

Holy :o:o:o:oing hell!!!! I just woke up and just realised what it might be.

One simple item that is not in a single document, post or anything, that has ever been brought up is the equalization flared fitting.

So, the equalization line is designed to open up the expansion valve on the suction side if pressure is too low, allowing additional freon. Makes sense...

All modern evaporator cores come with a shrader valve built in them, probably for universal systems, regardless of being model specific and that some models that use this coil might not have an equalization tube.

If a valve is installed on the suction side of the evap coil, once a low pressure or vacuum has accumulated, it will always detect a vacuum and excessively open the expansion valve, right?!?!

OMG, did I just figure this out?!?!

Remove the God damn valve from the suction line of the evaporator coil?

SJTD 06-19-2019 08:55 AM

Got pichers of what you're referring to?

Seems I've read of a shrader valve installed on evaporators that's supposed to be removed. I seem to remember it was there so they could pump it up with nitrogen for shipping/storage and it had to be removed or it wouldn't funcfuncfunction.

Beach_Dude 06-19-2019 10:19 PM


Before


After

SJTD 06-19-2019 10:39 PM

Demit. I can't see the pichers. Nothing there but space. I'll have to bypass the firewall in the morning or maybe use my phone.

Where are you hosting them? I gotta talk to my son about if he can allow some exceptions. I do see the pic in your first post.

Cranky uses cubeupload.com and I can't see his.

bkilby 06-20-2019 07:11 AM

I couldn't see them at first either. I had to right click and "reload" to see them.

Beach_Dude 06-20-2019 09:46 AM





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