Side gapping def a positive thing...

[JNErotten]

Keep in mind I just did this yesterday, but before going on a 3 hour trip I bought some Autolite coppers, and side gapped them with my dremel. It cured my misfire, runs absolutly smooth, super quiet, and we calculated it at about 17 mpg. I am very impressed with this trick, and can't thank the person enough who posted here recently for the tip. It feels like it's a new vehicle and I still haven't had a chance to get the choke and carb totaly dialed in perfect. Almost afraid to temp fate by even going into it. When i got back today, I pulled a plug and it's not even tan yet. We'll see about the long term, but so far I couldn't be happier. :D

Take Care,
J

[Slippery]

UnkleMunky posted the tip...thanks for the update, I forgot all about it, I'll have to try it.

[Joe's 89]

Side gapped? You mean you removed the electrode?

[andy d]

great job UM!. i need to r/rplugs and wires on the wag. i'm gonna try it on some 99cent autolites. BTW, heres a tip for you guys doing a valve job. its called indexing the plugs. it uses washers to ensure that the open part of the plug faces the intake valve. its easy to do, yields a modest gain in hp,but you hafta have the head off to do it. i picked that info off the e-28 bulletin board.

[JNErotten]

Joe, here is a link that UnkleMunky had on his post and what got me into trying this. I hope it works and I'll let everyone know how long it takes for the center electrode the start wareing. I got copper so it will ware faster than normal.

J

[porkchop]

Where's the link?

[JNErotten]

http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/sparkplugs.html

My bad...
smile.gif

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JNErotten:
Keep in mind I just did this yesterday, but before going on a 3 hour trip I bought some Autolite coppers, and side gapped them with my dremel. It cured my misfire, runs absolutly smooth, super quiet, and we calculated it at about 17 mpg. J<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you are saying that what "you did" to the new plugs is the reason for your new found smooth idle, mpg increase etc...rather than the simple fact they are just new plugs and 'may'(?) have gotten the same results w/o messing with them?
Fresh new plugs even w/o tweaking generally have a profound positive effect on running characteristics over running on old worn out plugs...sorry, it's the born skeptic in me smile.gif

[JNErotten]

I hear ya, but I yanked some Bosh plugs out of it that I just put in two weeks ago. Wanted to start completly fresh to get full impact, and that I did, so far anyways...

J

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JNErotten:
I hear ya, but I yanked some Bosh plugs out of it that I just put in two weeks ago. Wanted to start completly fresh to get full impact, and that I did, so far anyways...

J<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok J, that adds a bit of credibility to the test. smile.gif
Were the old/fresh plugs Bosch 'platinums'? Reason I ask is that peolple have sworn to me 'platinums' are next to God and my experience with them in older non-computer rigs(1 CJ, 2 LC's) have been BAD. They fouled w/in 1000-1500 mi in all 3 cases(I'm a slow learner) and I went back just to just plain old el cheapo Champs each time and run happily ever after. Yes...they were gapped correctly ;)

[JNErotten]

They were Bosh supers. Like a buck a piece from Pep Boys. I don't like them much. One felt lose on my 5 cyl. and I went to hand tighten it before I wrenched 'er and it just spun and spun. I thought "Oh great, how could I of stripped the therads on the block?" I don't torque them down that tight! Found out that it was just the insulator that had come lose and was free spinning. It ws running very rich at start up too with bogging and sputtering till warm because all cyl wern't fireing and gave me a hell of a time setting the timing since it would not hold a steady RPM. The new side gapped plugs knocked all those problems out. I'm guessing, if you have a sensitive old engine, the direct spark just gives it that extra fire it needs. If you look at a splitfire, you'll notive the V actually allows the center electrode to be alittle exposed. I'm guessing that's where the magic may lie because it's not like both of those points off the V are ever gonna get spark at the same time.

J

[bentpushrod]

I just wanted to throw in something I found very interesting. It's from a member of another board who is very respected on the other board. Here it is:

When engineers design the engine they design it around one plug. Obviously GM uses AC since they own it.
When something's designed around the plug, don't you think that plug would be the best one?
The design is not only the reach, thread size and heat range. It also involves indexing. Why do you think they give a torque rating - certainly it's not so you won't overtighten it, but it indexes the ground electrode to the best position in the chamber. The ground electrode creates a "shadow" in the flame propogation, the initial design takes that into account. The threads are cut in the head to always get the ground in the right spot IF the right torque was used. That's why changing from bone stock often gives a rough idle, higher emissions, and lower mileage - even though the heat range and everything else is the same.
I've proven that many times on dynos. Plug indexing does make a difference - especially when you are building a super high performance engine, it can make a difference as much as 50 hp on a 1200 hp race motor. It's all in relation.

The aftermarket folks come along - they trial fit what looks like it might fit, then tell everyone theirs is better. Reality is they create "fits-alls" or one size fits all - ask your wife about those sexy underthings like that. Bosch is especially guilty of that.

Note the past posts here about tapered vs gasketed seats - some non stock plugs even list ones for the engine with the wrong sealing method! They don't care.

There is something I call "pink." That's stuff that needs a gimmick to sell, they paint it pink or bnight yellow, flourescent green or something to get it to sell - to kids that don't understasnd but think bright colors means high performance. Accel is one of the biggest offenders of that - look at their HEI performamce stuff - it's stock GM with additional plastic stuff all over it - fins etc. Things to make it look spacey, but test it with a scope or dyno, you'll find it's just stock GM. They make their plugs yellow too. (But if you put their sticker on the side of your Jeepster you'll be the envy of all the kids.)

There was even a recent post here about an Accel coil that puts 40,000 volts to the plugs. A scope, will show that's not possible. Even a plug with the gap way too wide at .080 will only allow the voltage at the plug to go to about 15,000 volts, then once the gap ionizes and the spark jumps across the gap it will drop down to about 4,000 volts tops. And that plug will misfire at higher speeds under load, it's way too wide.
The potential of the coil output is 40,000 volts, just like stock GM HEI.
Normal plug ionization voltage is 8-12 KV.
Lots of things are made to sell, not to use - "pink."

Japanese cars are designed the same way, and European cars too. It's best to use the stock plug that the engine was designed around.

By the way, Champions are very good plugs, and their engineering department is extremely helpful. They've gone way overboard helping us determine the proper plugs for unusual applications for racing. AC and the others won't even return your calls. Champion will even come out and use their pyrometer and see through plugs to help with the design.
You'll find Champion is less "guilty" of trying to make one plug fit many different applications - that's why you find some engines don't list a Champion for it.
Look at how many numbers there are for the new fad splitfires - not many compared to stock AC's -- fit's-alls.

Splitting one or both electrodes, knurling it, bending it into a ring, making a fat ones, skinney ones, double tips, alloying with platinum, copper, aluminum, coloring the ceramic yellow, blue or pink etc are simply sales gimmicks.

Reality is the spark wants to jump from a sharp edge to a sharp edge. How it got there through platinum or copper or carbon makes absolutely no difference. A steel core may have .001 ohms resistance, and the copper slightly less resistance, but what's that in comparison to the plug wire that has 10-20,000 ohms per foot?

The position, length, and diameter of the spark is the important thing. The tip needs to be warm for the spark to jump easily, but too hot it doesn't like either. Besides, too hot will pre-ignite and destroy the engine over time.

And, there is only one spark that can jump at a time, not several like the pictures show with time lapse photography.

But, you'll always find someone who swears they helped their vehicle. Yes, putting in a "pink" gold plated, blessed by the rabbi, yellow, platinum, knurled, splitfire you paid $10 for will definately help your engine run better, -- if the old stock plug was defective or fouled to begin with.

[UnkleMunky]

This is a good thread....both pros/cons on the issue, which is fine. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on any of this, but I liked the sounds of the theory when I read up on it(even though I've not been impressed with splitfires and some others). With a 4 cylinder engine in my K-car, I decided it would be cheap and easy to try there. Thus, here's what I did:

Though I don't recall the "Exact" miles offhand, I changed the plugs to NEW right after getting the car last spring. I had not put a ton of miles on it....maybe a few hundred and decided to try the side-gapped plug thing. I noticed the same thing JNE noticed....smoother idle, a little stronger acceleration and "slightly" better gas mileage. In a car with a 2.2 engine, "any" umph in power and performance is helpful! smile.gif I'm not going to say it "floored" me, but I was definitely impressed. Enough so that I intend to try the sidegapping on my J10 before long(just haven't gotten around to it).

Overall....I have been impressed so far, and I was also not going from "shot" plugs to merely "new"....I was replacing fairly new plugs as well, and yet noticed a favorable difference thereafter. I STILL believe things like basic tuneup, fresh oil, filters, etc. are VERY important to a vehicle's performance. But, going for every little bit to improve the vehicle's running(and if the idle improves after side-gapping, I don't think you could argue it was the wrong thing to do!), improves power, etc., well, they're worth considering....for the vehicle's well being, longevity, fuel economy, etc.

The one drawback to side-gapping is the plugs don't last as long as normal plugs, as they're firing off one side mainly, which will wear things down sooner. Roughly, I've heard it cuts plug life in half. But, even if you spent $6-8 on plugs every 5000-10000 miles, well, if it improves performance and mileage, wouldn't it be worth considering? Not a big expense for a positive improvement.

I would caution that everyone's experience may vary, but heck, a round of plugs is cheap. Spend an hour, cut off the ends of the electrodes(see the link above and you'll know where to cut!), and try it. If you like it, you'll know. If it's a waste, well, what are you out? A few $$$ at most. If you got a 4 banger around in something, try it in that...it's even cheaper! smile.gif No biggie if you, or anyone, doesn't want to try it, but I know I've felt some positive difference in my experience with it so far. When I do the plugs on the J10, I'll let ya'll know if it makes a difference there too, but I was glad to see JNE had gotten an improvement of his own....wasn't my idea, just something I mentioned anyone could try out as I'd seen the difference on one vehicle already.

BTW....I've heard that the platinums and that should NOT be cut. Just use plain old regular $1 plugs as they're cheaper and not "coated" so the metal is uniform throughout. Also...yes, I agree that certain brands tend to work better in certain lines of vehicles.....and that usually is worth sticking with!

If you all want to see another "idea" in plugs, and why the spark having room to fire in is important, take a look at the Halo plugs....pretty pricey, but definitely gives room for firing. I decided to try the side-gapping as it was cheaper for what I needed! smile.gif Here's the halo site:
http://www.halosparkplug.com/misc/explanation.htm

Just more to think about.

[bentpushrod]

UncleMunky,

Sidegapping is an interesting idea. I wasn't trying to disprove it. I just wanted to share a related discussion that I had found on another board.

Anything that helps performance is good in my book smile.gif Just thought people might enjoy some of the points in the thread I posted.

[Erix Jeep]

Evening! Just thought I would throw in my two cents worth here. Andy d, it is possible but someone time consuming, to index the plugs without having the head off the engine.

Simply mark with a permanent marker on the outside of the plug to indicate where the electrode is. Or you could file a groove on the "hex" part to indicate where the electrode is. Then simply add the washers you referred to until you have them properly indexed. I have seen this work quite well before.

Now for my own education,,,, I thought a person got better spark with a wider gap as long as you had the voltage to bridge the gap. Isn't that why the HEI type ignitions run a broader gap than point type? smile.gif :confused:

[UnkleMunky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bentpushrod:
UncleMunky,

Sidegapping is an interesting idea. I wasn't trying to disprove it. I just wanted to share a related discussion that I had found on another board.

Anything that helps performance is good in my book smile.gif Just thought people might enjoy some of the points in the thread I posted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mind either way. I just thought that post concentrated heavily on the "just replace new"(which IS a good viewpoint) is usually as good as any of the "gimicks" AND the "pink" thing. I realize that DOES happen(also happens with air/fuel filters, etc.!!!), but there are some things that have come about from mere experience. I'd heard the side-gapping thing was an old "ford race car" secret, but it's become more well known since. Thus, I wanted to add my "personal" experience angle as well. I wasn't come merely at this from a "saw an ad for..." angle, but from actually having tried it.

I agree, it's an interesting idea, and that's why I decided to try it. Worst case scenerio would have been me being out $4 and an hour of time(took me a bit to get the hang of cutting them right(practiced on the OLD set first)). Noticing the difference has impressed me. To be a "believer" I'll have to see it repeated a number of times, though! But, at least now I have some experience. I'd tried splitfires some years ago, and though I didn't have any problem with them, I wasn't overly impressed either. I like the "halo" design idea, but about $8/plug is kinda high to me! Heck, I could change plugs ever 1000 miles side-gapping for no more than that! smile.gif Oh well....no problem on what your view or post was....I'm glad there's back/forth on this...it creates a better debate/discussion overall! Many of those points were good ones, and should be taken into consideration overall in maintaining a vehicle!

Personally, I don't tell people they really NEED to try this, but I sure can say I had positive results with my try with it! Even if it only is a marginal improvement, if I could do that in 5-10 more ways, it would be GREAT! I think it's also an interesting idea, and if anyone wants to try it, go for it. If not, that's fine too.....regular form plugs usually suffice most the time! I thought it worth my(and my vehicle's) time and effort, and hope it does as well on my J10!

Take care...