Pro-jection problem

[Terry B.]

I've finally been able to get back to this. I'm still trying to get this projection system started for the first time. I can get the engine started and up to 2000 rpm for about 10 seconds and then it just up and dies slowly. Seems like a fuel issue. It takes about 5 seconds of cranking to get it to start. I've tried to check all my vac hoses and everything seems fine. Pressure sits at about 13-14 psi. I'm not running any relays yet for fuel pump or dizzy. I've checked voltage at the dizzy during cranking and its 9.5, Holley says as long as its above 8.5 I'm ok so I haven't worried about that yet. When I get it cranked it sounds great before it dies. Any suggestions on what to try next would be appreciated.
TIA,
Terry

[ March 09, 2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Terry B. ]

[88GW]

Where did you get the info that it needs to have 8.5volts during cranking? What model is it? Where are the controls set at?

[Joe Guilbeau]

Number #1 Failure mode for Pro-Jections is that folks do not use relays to power the electric fuel pump, power to the ECU.

Number #2 Failure mode is that folks do not use an additional Electric Fuel pump (Holley 12-801) with associated relay to supply pressurized fuel to the supplied (Carter) electric fuel pump shipped with the units.

As long as you have the Tach signal going to the ECU the unit should continue to run.

I wonder if perhaps when she dies, you might try grounding the temp sensor wire termination (spade lug on my Analog temp sensor) and see if she will start and run.

If that doesn't do it, then go out and purchase a MSD Weathertight Connector 3-Pin Part Number 8172.

This is a kit with the terminations (male & female) crimp connectors and the Male and Female GM Weatherpak connectors to make up a pigtail to insert into the wiring harness in order to measure the signals going to and from the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).

You can purchase the proper color wires and thus crimp the connectors and insert into the male and female connectors. Now you will need to purchase some insulated spade lug connectors and insert these into each of the three wires. Once this is done, you now can insert this pigtail inbetween the wiring harness connector and the TPS and measure to see if the TPS is recieving the proper voltage (my analog system needs a minimum of 4.85 Vdc at the TPS) and in turn see what the TPS is sending back to the ECU at idle (my analog like about 0.73 Vdc depending upon the TPS).

The injectors should be giving a conical spray pattern with no droplets.

The weak link in these Pro-Jection systems is the TPS, to test the TPS, you can insert the pigtail into the TPS end and without power or connecting the wiring harness, measure the Ohms that the TPS (variable rheostat, potentiometer, variable resistor or whatever you want to call it) is giving relative to the Throttle plate. It should be a full smooth transistion.

I have replace 8 TPS in the ten years that I have owned the Holley Analog 502 Series Pro-Jection, I ALWAYS carry a spare or two with me ($32 dollars at Advance Auto stores).

I believe that the temp sensor for the Analog should measure about 200 Ohms when in a warmed up engine, and to troubleshoot and remove this sensor from the equation just ground it.

If you have the Digital, things are a bit more complicated...

[Terry B.]

I've got the analog version 502. I got the 8.5 from their installation manual. I've got one relay so I'll try to get it hooked up to the pump. Joe, I've read and will get an additional fuel pump per your recommendations, but I'm trying to get this up and out in a hurry. I need to free up the space asap. I've tested the TPS per their instructions in the manual and everything tested ok. I'll check the tack signal and try grounding the temp sensor, I just didn't expect it because it is brand new.

[Joe Guilbeau]

I can certainly help you out as I have been running an Analog TBI Holley Pro-Jection for about 10 years now.

You indicate that it take 5 seconds to start initially, that indicates a fuel delivery problem.

Have someone crank it over, you should immediately see a conical spray pattern, if not check the fuel pressure and insure that the return line is less than 3 PSI (this is imperative!).

My gut feeling is that it is a fuel delivery problem, and so this leads me to inquire about the physical location of the Carter Fuel Pump delivered with the system.

[Terry B.]

I've got the pump mounted to the frame in front of the tank. The return pressure is about 3 psi. I keep thinking it is a fuel delivery problem as well. The way its starting and falling on its face it feels like afuel problem.

[88GW]

Joe, do you place the additional pump before the supplied unit or after it? How about the relay what would you use? Think I may do this with mine.

[Joe Guilbeau]

There is an online Installation/Users Manual for the 502-Series Analog Pro-Jection unit that includes part numbers for the relays, that I posted under one of my messages on the Holley Pro-Jection.

I mounted my Carter fuel pump (supplied with the TBI) on the Drivers inner fender well (I have removed the vacuum canisters) and use a relay to supply it with power instead of having the ECU supply power via it's internal transistor.

So the power to the fuel pump is relayed thru a fuse and sent to the relay contacts, and the transistor inside of the ECU controls the relay.

I also use this control line to supply the relay trigger for the additional Holley 12-801 Red series of electronic fuel pump on another relay with fused power. I mounted the 12-801 fuel pump on the frame member just infront of the spare tire carrier. The 12-801 is used to supply positive pressure to the Carter fuel pump mounted on top of the Drivers front fender well. I used stainless steel tubing (3/16") to route the gas supply and return lines under the vehicle, and rubber lines underneath the hood.

I have a supply fuel pressure gauge and a return line fuel pressure gauge. The gas filter is placed after the Carter pump an is on the fender well also. At some point I will go ahead and place an approved "Tee-Valve" or other device so I will be able to fill a gas can from the return side plumbing.

When is is very wet and cold. you can fill up a soup can with gas to about 3/4 full, tamp a hole to hold it into the groung and cover with your fire wood, then just lite the can and it will burn well for 20 minutes until the wood dries and catches on. Worked up in Alaska for many wet and cold fires when gathering wood. Just don't spill it!

[Joe Guilbeau]

There is also a Pink Wire that tells the ECU to pulse the injectors while cranking the engine when starting.

This is usually connected to the Sarter Solenoid and hot only while cranking the engine.

Check this out, I believe that when you WOT the throttle plates, that it puts the system on another mode for starting.

One additional cauting here, if the return gas line is not lower than 3-PSI then the Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphragm can rupture and spew gas all over the engine bay...not good!!!

Here are some notes from a guy and this is a lesson in how not to install a Pro-Jection unit, he seems to cover anything that can be done wrong...prety funny!

At least he posted his mistakes for others to learn from, kudos! We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Fuel/Projection/

[djmac]

joe,
what kind of problems do you expect if you do not install the second pump and a relay to fuel pump. i have a projection installed without these items.

[Terry B.]

Their is several things you accomplish by having the relays and extra pump installed. Having the relays you lessen the load on the ECU and the extra pump reduces the wear on the carter.

[Terry B.]

If the fuel pressure is at 13psi and the return is at 3psi could I assume my fuel pump is working properly.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by djmac:
joe,
what kind of problems do you expect if you do not install the second pump and a relay to fuel pump. i have a projection installed without these items.There is a transistor inside the ECU that is used to supply power to the Electronic Fuel Pump.

Since this transistor must carry the full load for the Electronic Fuel Pump power requirements, it gets hot and eventually expires.

As it gets hot, the heat sink transfers heat to the rest of the ECU thus causing premature aging, and eventual heat related failures.

Now, the placement of the original electric fuel pump supplied with as OEM equipment is a Carter branded electric fuel pump. It was never designed to pump as hard as we require it, if you mount it near the gas tank (as suggested by Holley) it works too hard to pump fuel all the way up to the engine bay, and all of the fuel that the TBI does not use is funneled back to the gas tank in the return line. This means that that little pump is working really hard, being supplied by a transistor inside the ECU that is working very hard also.

Make life easy on both components, use the Transistor to supply the relay signal to close it contacts. Use a relay with an AMP rating to insure that it is not overtaxed.

HINT>>> If you purchase a single throw double pole relay of sufficient current carrying capacity, you can use a single relay to power both of the Electronic Fuel Pumps.

The Number One failure of ECU's is this Transistor, burn it up and you have no signal to run the Electronic Fuel Pump/s.

This is the reason many of the ECU's get hot!

[Joe Guilbeau]

Yep,

However one thing should be made clear about the Fuel Pressure (12-15PSI) this should be used to richen or lean out the system after running correctly.

Pull the plugs, if they are the correct color, then the fuel pressure is right on. Too light (almost white) and the fuel pressure needs to be higher.

Too dark (dark brown or darker) and the Fuel Pressure needs to be lower.

The best way to tune your system is to set it for Small Block operation (rocker switches inside the ECU) and set all potentiometers to mid-range.

Loosen the TPS and adjust as you attempt to start the vehicle. When the vehicle starts, play with the TPS adjustment until the vehicle runs. Now let her warm up, or put a 200 OHM resistor from Block Ground to the temperature sender spade lug connector to simulate a warm engine.

Now, the Idle potentiometer should have a range of adjustments so that you can lower idle and raise the idle. The TPS needs to be set so that the Idle Potentiometer will not kill the engine with lowered all of the way.

The Mid-Range pot needs to set so that at 3000RPMs or so the engine will increase in RPMs as the Pot is turned clockwise...it SHOULD plateau out about 3/4 turns to full CCW position.

The TPS setting is really what gives this the range of adjustments. Each ECU will deliver a slightly different 5Vdc signal to the TPS for a reference voltage so that the position of the TPS throttle plate will cause the voltage divider to give a linear displacement in voltage that is supposed to be consistant with the physical position of the throttle plate from fully closed to fully open.

I am considering a modification to my circuitry to provide a DC-DC power supply (Oil Field Grade) to provide a 12Vdc to 5Vdc voltage conversion to supply the TPS with a better regulated signal.

This way the TPS (the only signal that is really controlling the ECE) is right on.

[djmac]

joe
my exhaust always smells rich. when i pull up to a light an idle you can smell it in the cab. i have it leaned out the best that i know. do you think that the fuel pressure is the culprit? [14-15 lb] there is no smog equipment on my 460 at all and someone told me the smell is because of that but to me it smells rich and the plugs say so too. i have a hard time getting it to idle right also. if i lean it out enough to get a good idle it is too lean when at wot. open the main to get a good wot setting and i have a surge at idle speed.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by djmac:
joe
my exhaust always smells rich. when i pull up to a light an idle you can smell it in the cab. i have it leaned out the best that i know. do you think that the fuel pressure is the culprit? [14-15 lb] there is no smog equipment on my 460 at all and someone told me the smell is because of that but to me it smells rich and the plugs say so too. i have a hard time getting it to idle right also. if i lean it out enough to get a good idle it is too lean when at wot. open the main to get a good wot setting and i have a surge at idle speed.Yes, I think tht you are on the money, the fuel pressure in the Pro-Jectiion systems is used to adjust the lean and rich characteristics of the mill.

The system has only the position of the throttle plate to control the injectors, and there needs to be a "Window" set up so that when all of the pots on the ECU are set to mid-range the system is at the exact center of that "Window".

If the TPS is rich at when set at the middle of the "Window" then the system will always run...(fill in the blank here...RICH).

So initial setting of the TPS at idle is extremely important, get this set right and everything else will fall in place.

Sounds to me like you are Rich at idle, and are using the fuel pressure setting to compensate.

You must set the big block rocker panel switch and get the initial settings right on the TPS before going any further. Then everything will track nicely.

You may want to consider getting one of the exhaust gas analyzers (to display the 14.7 whatever ratio) and use this to set the initial TPS settings at idle.

Then your adjustment ranges should be pretty much right on.

[djmac]

sound like i am getting somewhere! i am not sure where the dipswitches are located. Is it located within the large unit (heat sink) in the cab? should i set this to small block then set the tps and go from there to start?

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by djmac:
sound like i am getting somewhere! i am not sure where the dipswitches are located. Is it located within the large unit (heat sink) in the cab? should i set this to small block then set the tps and go from there to start?Small block setting is for 360 Cubic Inch and smaller.

Large block setting is for 360 Cubic Inch and larger.

There is a bank of rocker panel switches inside the ECU, removal of the end plastic pieces reveals them.

See the manual for further details.

[djmac]

Has anyone found a substitute for the projection fuel filters? a fram equivalent? also i bought the aquistion software only to find out that it will work only on windows 3.8. do you guys know of anyone with software that is reasonably priced for later versions of windows? i have the analog tbi but it would be interesting to see whats going on.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by djmac:
Has anyone found a substitute for the projection fuel filters? a fram equivalent? also i bought the aquistion software only to find out that it will work only on windows 3.8. do you guys know of anyone with software that is reasonably priced for later versions of windows? i have the analog tbi but it would be interesting to see whats going on.Any fuel filter will work as long as it plumbs into the gas line...

What aquisition software are you speaking of? Is this made by Holley for their Digital Pro-Jection systems?

As far as I know there is no version of Windows 3.8???

You cannot use the digital software for the Analog ECU, it ain't gonna happen.

The Analog ECU uses simple Operational Amplifiers to relate to the voltages sent by the Throttle Position Sensor and the voltage dividers (potentiometers on the face of the Analog ECU).

For the analog systems, you only need one of those Oxygen sensors and the ratio display to place the TPS in the proper ratio of Gas to whatever it is called (stiochrometric whatever...) at something like 14.3 or 14.7.

This should be on a warmed up engine, with all pots set at mid-range, with the voltage that the ECU is recieving from the Throttle Position Sensor at about 0.63-0.68 Vdc.

If the engine does not like this range go ahead and use the Oxygen sensor to set the initial TPS setting to where it is in the proper range.

That way, the TPS is sending the Operational Amplifiers the voltage in the "Middle" of the window of the +/- inputs, and since all the potentioneters are in the center position, the Operational Amplifiers for the Choke, Idle, Mid Range, Power and Accelerator Pump are centered so that the voltages that they report to the operational amplifiers can go ahead and modify the pulsing paramaters of the fuel injectors.

This is all that is really happening with this system, it is soley dependent on the initial set up of the TPS which in turn sends an Operational Amplifier a voltage reference poit, which in turn modifies a Pulse Width Modification circuit which in turn gives the injectors the correct signal (in accordance of where the throttle plate is opened to) to give the correct fuel delivery spray volumn.

The Fuel pressure is what is used to give the rich/lean characteristics for the engine burn, however if the system is not set up initially correctly, then all is lost.

Just tune by ear the TPS setting at idle when the engine is warm, with the pots set at mid-range, and you will be pretty supprised at how close you can get.

Thats how they do it with carbs....not too much difference, except that there are no jets...only fuel pressure and a somewhat linearincrease in fuel delivery as the throttle plates are being opened and closed.

[djmac]

sorry typo........ windows 3.1. my documentation says that you can view the systems performance via the aquisition software (made for the digital) but because it is analog you cannot map it. anyway please bare with me and see if i got this right because this is different from my documentation (their way does not work anyway)first thing i have to get the tps setting correct. is this initial setting established with the throttle plate closed? the setting you mentioned of .063-.065 is that at 750 rpm. i ask because it seemed to me that the when i change the throttle screw setting it changes the voltage at the tps. you mentioned using the oxy sensor if doing it by ear fails. to do the initial setup do you disconnect the o2 sensor at the wiring harness and then reconnect when you have it tuned? from reading your other posts i gather you should adjust your fuel pressure base on the spark plug color. what would you suggest as the initial setting for a ford big block... 14lbs? i appreciate your patience i see that you have written many times on this topic and i appreciate your time and advice.

[Rust Farmer]

Terry, the projection has a connection to the neg side of the coil for the tach signal. If the projection thinks the engine has stalled, it will shut off the fuel.

Try starting with the air cleaner off and the hood open. You will be able to see the injectors through the opening between the edge of the hood and the cowl. Are they still spraying when the engine stalls? My 89 runs good on the small block setting with the pots set to the middle of their range. Let us know how it goes.

RF

[Joe Guilbeau]

The Holley Pr0-Jection throttle plate and TPS should be set according to the following procedure.

Removing the spring from the throttle plate so that it will not try and open the plate, use the front idle adjustment screw on the front of the TBI to close the Throttle plate completely.

Set voltage to 0.63Vdc, now open the throttle plates a bit like you would a carb so that the engine starts and runs.

The thing is, all engines will want to run a bit different, so here is where you ground out the Temp Sensor (brown wire) and tweak the TPS until the engine runs great with all pots set to mid-range.

As you finally get the TPS tuned in to your vehicles engine, go smell the exhaust...if it is rich lower the fuel pressure, until she smells sweet or go buy a meter to read the exhaust.

Don't worry too much about using electrical doo-dads to monitor the system, tune it by ear and you will be spot on.

Forget about using software to monitor it...it is an analog operational amplifier system designed to do one thing and one thing only...vary the voltage to the injectors soley dependent on the voltage that it gets from the TPS...that is all that this system can do.

Get the TPS intitially set up correct (by ear on a warm engine) with all of the pots in center position, and you have just dialed it in.

Pack in some dielectric grease in the TPS before installation to keep out the water.

[djmac]

Thanks!
I will give a whirl and see what happens. Maybe I will be able to pass a gas station when I get it done.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by djmac:
Thanks!
I will give a whirl and see what happens. Maybe I will be able to pass a gas station when I get it done.don't bet on it....

[Joe Guilbeau]

Going over your original post again, the ECU needs a full 12Vdc, I ain't buying the 8.5Vdc line... and I don't really understand your reference to the "dizzy" and measuring the voltage there...what relationship does your distributor have with your ECU?

I must have missed something here...

[Terry B.]

Thanks for your help Joe. I've got 12 volts going to ECU. Two relays running the pumps and checked my TPS. I'd play with my TPS some but I can't keep it running long enough to play with it. Looking at both injectors while cranking, one is good the other needs to be rechecked. I'm having to do this myself so its a little tricky. I have had it up and running for about 3 minutes. I've also got the temp sensor wire grounded.If by chance I need to get another set of injectors where would you recommend getting them.

[Terry B.]

SUCCESS.
Thanks everyone. I've got alot to do, but its up and running.