Lift Blocks (Newby Question)

[FSFrank]

Okay, I hear all the bad stuff about lift blocks in a lift kit. My question is:

Where do lift blocks mount on the rear springs?

I know this is a dumb question, but I'm having a hard time picturing it in my head. The axle fits over the spring, so putting it there would drop the vehicle (right?). So does it mount where the leaves mount to the frame? If so, why go that route vs. a longer shackle?

Please ... be gentle with your answers. I'm still getting used to springs that aren't wound into coils http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif

Frank



------------------
FSFrank
fgeorge@techcom.net

http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)
[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The quickest way to get the contempt of strangers is to drive at the speed limit. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Slippery]

No, the axle is over the springs in the front. The rear is spring-over-axle (right, guys?); that's where the blocks go, between spring pack and axle.

(NEVER, EVER, EVER USE BLOCKS IN THE FRONT!!!)

------------------
Jason K. http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/icon16.gif
"No FSJ yet, but wait..."

[This message has been edited by Slippery (edited January 23, 2001).]

[FSFrank]

DOHHH!!!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/redface.gif

I had a couple of jpegs here at work and confirmed the obvious. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif Please forgive me for writing before thinking.

Okay, next questions.
What (if anything) is detrimental about increasing shackle lengh?

Are lift blocks bad because they break or do they have an ill effect on handling?

If I'm only interested in a 2" lift, I'm assuming that full length Add A Leaf's are the answer??? I have 32c11.50's that fit under stock springs right okay now and just want a little more clearance. Does stock pitman arm work for such a short lift?

Frank



------------------
FSFrank
fgeorge@techcom.net

http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)
[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The quickest way to get the contempt of strangers is to drive at the speed limit. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[River Beast]

Rancho makes a full length AAL (Add-A-Leaf)... don't get Black Diamond or Procomp... they are too short cause a stiff ride and can damage you spring packs. I know...

Call Rancho and ask for a 2.5" wide AAL for 2-2.5" of lift. they do have them,but not listed for our rigs specifically.

Stock pitman arms can be used up to 3" of lift and recommended to change to a drop pitman at 4-6"of lift. Any more lift than that requires more fabricating on your part.

Longer shackles in the front can be used and have been used/fabbed by many here. Just don't go haywire. It does rotate the axle slightly which affects your steering geometry to a degree... but not alot....just don't go haywire. To get 2" additional inches of lift, the shackle must be made twice as long as the amount of lift desired:

Ex: a stock FSJ shackle is aprox. 3" between bolt centers. To achieve 2" of lift, the shackle would have to be made 7".

Lift blocks... I stay away from them... I see alot of lifted trucks and blocks seem safe enuf....they wouldn't sell them otherwise... however... when I see the twisting of an axle or "axle wrap" caused by the torque when using blocks I cringe!!!! To me there is a stability issue with the axle being separated from the springs... when it comes to axle wrap..... this is only my excerp on the block issue and others may disagree...but for the extreme off-roading... stay away from blocks....



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[dweezle]

Don't feel bad, I'm still learning this stuff as well. AALs are the way to go for a small lift and shakles with arched springs for big lift. satan (previos owner) put big blocks on the front of my truck and they really bother the bejesus outa me.
FYI: earlier trucks like my '66 came SOA on front and back, not sure but I think that changed with the leaf size in '74.
good luck
tim tuthill

------------------
wanted: Dana 20 PTO and winch.

[RustyJeep]

Yep, I can attest to the axle-wrap under torqued acceleration. It wraps enought to make growning noises in the back of the GW. The PO put what I believe ar 2" blocks. This explians why it is harder to break loose the tires on the GW w/360 than it is on the Eagle w/258. All your torque gets wrapped up in the springs...bah.

------------------
RustyJeep
-----------

Project "P.O.S."
'82 J-10 258 4 Speed
Bone Stock...For Now
w/"Custom" Air Vents
Plaguing the Vehicle
Can anyone say, "Fred Flintstone" here?

Winter Car
----------
'85 AMC Eagle
258 cubic inches of pure...umm...power. Yeah that's it.
Lifted Eagle comes to mind.

Summer Car
----------
'79 Pontiac Grand Prix
65,000 original miles
301 4bbl with plenty of go.
Top speed unrecorded as my speedo drops off
and I've still got a long ways to go. :)

[FSFrank]

Thanks for the info. It sounds like the full length AAL is the way to go. If I may continue with the questions, what about a shackle reversal on the front axle? I've heard this improves handling, and if I've got the leaf pulled apart for an AAL why not? Does anyone make a kit for this or are we getting beyond the scope of a 4x4 newby.

I'm somewhat mechanically inclined, but my efforts have been strictly motorcycles for the past couple of years. I don't mind tearing into engines, but my comfort level stops at welding. Not afraid of it, just never had the time to learn.

TIA


------------------
FSFrank fgeorge@techcom.net
http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not getting smarter, but I'm getting much more secretive about my stupidity. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by FSFrank (edited January 23, 2001).]

[WINGO]

Check out this thread about AAL and other issues.
http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002366.html

I installed a Rough Country AAL and picked up 2.25".

Good Luck!

------------------
WINGO
Vineland, NJ
USA
1984 GW 360
Rough Country/Heckethorn 2 1/4" AAL (actual lift)
Rough Country/Heckethorn Nitro 9000 Shocks
Performance Accesories 3 " Body Lift

Soon to Have:
1- Rhino Grill
2- Alis-Chalmers Orange & Black Durabark exterior paint.
3- 33" X 12.50" tires

[This message has been edited by WINGO (edited January 23, 2001).]

[missionpilot]

While you're answering FSJ newby questions:

Anyone know how much lift is required to clear 33" tires on a 78 Chief?

Does 4" of lift require more than just the drop pitmann arm? Any Drivetrain alignment problems or requirements?

[FSFrank]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missionpilot:
Anyone know how much lift is required to clear 33" tires on a 78 Chief?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/Jeep/79_Chief_01.jpg . This is my 79 Chief sitting at the PO's house. It has stock springs with 32x11.50's mounted on 15x10 rims. I've never driven it (parts truck), but the PO (who is a coworker) says that he never had a clearance problem. I was planning to see how the AAL kit performed and possible go to 33's.

Wingo, what is included RC AAL kit? I was planning to go ahead and replace all the bushings with urethane (someone posted a link recently). Is it a full length spring?

I'm assuming that I need to get new shocks to account for the mild (2") lift?

Frank



------------------
FSFrank fgeorge@techcom.net
http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not getting smarter, but I'm getting much more secretive about my stupidity. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[78Chief]

I am running 33's on my chief and don't have any lift. I think I do have an add-a-leaf. I have heard that 33's will fit stock though.

------------------
78 Chief
401 (The Beast)
33" BFG a/t
Hey It's Big and Green!

[WINGO]

I purchased the AAL and shocks from J C Whitney for $ 210.00. The front leaf is full lenght and is place directly below the main leaf with the eyes. The rear is a short leaf and is the last leaf in the leaf spring pack. With the leafs, you only get the four leafs and 8 leaf spring bolts. You only need four and they are of two different sizes and four leaf straps.

Be sure to pick up enough teflon/plastic spring pads to place between the springs as you assemble them. Count them on you leaf before you do anything.

Good luck!


------------------
WINGO
Vineland, NJ
USA
1984 GW 360
Rough Country/Heckethorn 2 1/4" AAL (actual lift)
Rough Country/Heckethorn Nitro 9000 Shocks
Performance Accesories 3 " Body Lift

Soon to Have:
1- Rhino Grill
2- Alis-Chalmers Orange & Black Durabark exterior paint.
3- 33" X 12.50" tires

[82wagonlimtd]

I am not in favor of AAL's for one reason they harshen the ride. If you are not going to be pushing some serious power, blocks are a whole lot cheaper (for the rear) and work just fine while keeping the factory ride. In the front....you don't have much choice except to go to a little higher lift (3" or so) and replace the front springs. A 3" kit with shocks- springs in front and block in rear, all hardware is $320 in this months Four Wheeler Magazine frm Rocky Mountain Susp. (pg 99) so $210 for aal's is cheaper but $320 for a complete lift aint bad.

just my 2 cents

Andy

[River Beast]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 82wagonlimtd:
I am not in favor of AAL's for one reason they harshen the ride. If you are not going to be pushing some serious power, blocks are a whole lot cheaper (for the rear) and work just fine while keeping the factory ride. In the front....you don't have much choice except to go to a little higher lift (3" or so) and replace the front springs. A 3" kit with shocks- springs in front and block in rear, all hardware is $320 in this months Four Wheeler Magazine frm Rocky Mountain Susp. (pg 99) so $210 for aal's is cheaper but $320 for a complete lift aint bad.

just my 2 cents

Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said... some may disagree but think of this...

AAL's' vs. blocks...hmmmm...

Example FSJ:

Here's a 20 year old vehicle with at least a 2" "wag-sag" which would also add to a more than soft, ride....let's see....

IF you want to "revive" your existing springs, The AAL's will give them the natural arch back, plus some. So in reality from where you sit now (scenario FSJ I mentioned above), You could potentially gain a good 3.5" with a 2.5"...why... you will be keeping the spring pack arched with the AAL (they are not that thick either). One AAL (full length does add some stiffness to the ride but most all FSJ'ers that run them would probably agree that the weight of these rigs really helps the AAL's give a smooth ride... a little stiffer, but still smooth.

Blocks, on the other hand, will just gain back the 2" and thus still have a worn out spring trying to do the job.

Again, I will say that a NEW lift that is bought with blocks vice 4 springs, overall reduces suspension performance because you are adding new healthy spring packs up front to a worn out sagging rear set. They can't compete with the new springs up front throwing your suspension capabilities into a battle... front can/will do what it's supposed to.. being new... and rear will "try" for keep up with the flexing and drooping but can't because it's "flexed" just sitting there cuz it's worn out and "sagged out".

It's like rebuilding one half of a V8 engine...one side new and one side old and worn out.... there is a "balance of power" issue here re in the suspension's case "balance of capabilities"... crude, simple illustration, but I think I made my point.




------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[88GW]

I am running add a leafs on my 88 GW. I would not recommend them at all. They ride extremely stiff and are more trouble to install than its worth. I am going to be purchasing a Rustys four inch lift with all four springs and hardware for $440. Think about it !!!!!!!!

------------------

[FSFrank]

Who makes a full length AAL for the rear. I went surfing last night and the closest I came was the Rough Country kit with a full length front and a short rear.


I looked at the Rancho site, but (as stated by River Beast) they don't lisk a full lenghth for a FSJ.

SkyJaker site appeared to be down last night.

Frank

------------------
FSFrank ... fgeorge@techcom.net
http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not getting smarter, but I'm getting much more secretive about my stupidity. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[scotty]

blocks are not the best way to lift,but are not so bad either.i do agree on the power issue.i have never had trouble with axlewrap,but i have a 258 and 38 inch tires,so power vs traction is not an issue.

also,i pesronally like my 15 year old worn out stock springs.theyre real soft,and she flexes real good.of course,i dont drive mine on the street(much),so my needs are alittle different.if i had balanced tires on it,and the right gears(or more reasonablly sized tires)it would be alot more pleasant to drive on the street than my 3/4 ton j20,which is very stiff unloaded. a flat spring will always give you better articulation than an arched spring with the same rate,and definately more than a stiff arched lift spring.

i also agree on the short add a leaves.they WILL destroy your springs.it has happened to me,too.

i think that there is not really safety issue with rear blocks,and wether a person will be happy with blocks vs springs or AALs depends on alot of factors,including,the condition of the springs,and what they expect from the vehicle,not to mention engine power. it sure is alot easier to cut 4 u bolts and stick in a block than to dissassemble a spring pack,so on a low geared,slow moving,underpowered trail rig that you want to keep cost to a minimum,i dont see anything wrong with a block. on the other hand,if youve got a warmed up 401,and want to run 33s on the street,you prolly do want a real stiff set of sprigs and shokcs(and maybe some traction bars http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif ) if you feel your ride is soft and vauge,then you definately dont want to use blocks,youll want AALs or new springs.if moneys tight,a person could give the blocks a try,and swap them out for springs later if hes not happy with the ride.

as with most issues with 4 wheeling,and building jeeps,there are no right or wrong answers,and i think everyone has made some good points. many ways to skin the lift cat http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[mhoffor]

Some will disagree with me but if you want flex you need old springs, an old spring will compress more and drop just as much as a new one. I use home built lift blocks with no problems they are 6" long which helps with axel wrap and solid steel which adds about 30 lbs of unsprung weight. I can lift a front tire more than 31" before lifting a back tire. Handleing is much better than when I purchased it and It looks awsome.

------------------
Mike Hoff
74 J10
360 Edelbrock Carb
TH400 w/shift kit
Headman Headers 3" pipes w/flomasters
Spring over front 8" net lift
Shackel flip w/2 1/2 steel blocks rear 7" net lift

[RudyC]

I was at the bone yard and there was a Chero with custom made front shackels maybe a foot long hade of at least 1/4 inch steel. What are the ill effects of this? Althought it about 200 times stronger and stiffer that the stock stamped steel shackles. Oh yea it was a 360 with a 4speed stick and a D20 T/C. Real awsome set up http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.

------------------
"BULLSEYE"
1979 WAGONEER, 360,
Holley 600 CFM carb.
Stock 4bbl Intake,
TFI CONVERSION, TH400, Q-TRAC. 3" ADD A LEAFS, 31" MUD T/A'S (PEP BOYS CLONES).
http://home.earthlink.net/~zzjoecool/index.html

[This message has been edited by RudyC (edited January 24, 2001).]

[FSFrank]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RudyC:
I was at the bone yard and there was a Chero with custom made front shackels maybe a foot long hade of at least 1/4 inch steel. What are the ill effects of this? &lt;deleted&gt;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif 12" Shackle! On the Front!!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif

&lt;insert Jeep newby disclaimer here&gt;
From the little I know about suspensions http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif , I can only guess that the steering would best be described as scary. Couldn't have been a street vehicle, could it?!?

Wouldn't you be causing drastic changes in caster as the spring flexes. Without knowing the Jeep's geometry , I'm guessing that you could almost be getting into a negative caster situation. If that were true, the wheels would not want to stay pointed ahead. It would be like driving backwards and taking your hands off the wheel (don't try this at homes kids).

Can anyone with better knowledge of suspensions confirm these assumptions????

Frank



------------------
FSFrank ... fgeorge@techcom.net
http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge/Image/General/License_1tn.jpg (http://www.techcom.net/~fgeorge)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> 1983 Cherokee Laredo (project truck)
<LI> 1979 Cherokee Chief (organ doner)
<LI> 1983 Moto Guzzi LeMans III (2-wheeled diversion)[/list]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not getting smarter, but I'm getting much more secretive about my stupidity. (Red Green)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Wabash-Riverrat]

I have a 68 gladiator with 4" aluminum blocks all the way around instaled by PO. The only trouble that I see with them is that the rear blocks have splits right through the middle. they started as small crackes when i first seen them & in just a few day after I instaled a fresh non stock Buick 350 they split real bad. I an in the middle of repairing the D44
that couldn,t take the torque. I will replace the blocks with steel blocks when I go back togather.

------------------
I just work so I can buy bait & amo.

[dweezle]

this is a Q, i've placed infront of all of you many-a-time and never gotin a satisfactory answer. Context: The spring pack was changed in '74 and I own a '66J-3600, it has good springs in the back and brocken springs with large lift blocks in the front. The front springs will be changed as soon as I find some to replace them with. I've done some research and all that is avilible to me is AALs and complete lift kits. The rear as I said was fine so no need for the complete lift. The blocks really scare me and they will be going bye-bye. From what I know Blocks are very bad for the front as they can impair steering severly.
to pull the front up will AALs suffice? This truck will not be a trail thrasher but it will see some ugly back roads, mostly getting me to school and work.(14 Ml.s one way)
thanks
tim tuthill

------------------
wanted: Dana 20 PTO and winch.

[jeepbob]

Hey guys DON'T PUT LIFT BLOCKS IN THE FRONT END.
The reason for this is with the forces generated by 4500 lbs at 60 mph while turning can cause a block to break or even come out and its is a good way to end upside down in a water filled ditch and drown. (seen the end results, not pretty) GOT IT?!!!
IF YOU GOT THEM IN, GET THEM OUT, NOW!

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud