Jeep T18 to NP 205 question

[Elliott]

I've seen that the post '80 J20 manual truck was T18 and NP 208 via an adaptor that I will assume also bolts to the NP 205.
The post '80 NP 208 was probably built for Jeep's 23 spline T18 shaft.
Is there a way to fit the NP 205 (31 spline) to the T 18 without going to a 208-205 doubler?

I read up on panther's post: http://panther4x4.com/t18a/
and was a little confused as the pic is said to show a Jeep T18 with the adaptor and 31 spline output shaft? Earlier in the post I thought he said the Jeep had only 23 spline shaft. If the '80 and '81 T18 had 31 splines and the adaptor then that should be all I need for a NP 205 adaptation.... comments?

If I was to run a Ford reverse cut Dana 60 up front in my Gladiator this seems like the route to take. Drop my Dana 20 and go with the driver's side pumkin Ford axle.
WMS-WMS is 69" on the Ford axles right?

[ December 22, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[K-Centre]

I may not be able to answer the 205 question but can fill you in on some of the other stuff. To my knowledge, no Jeep ever came stock with a 203.

Some of the post-80 rigs came with NP208 which included a 23 spline output. The only post-80 truck that came with the T-18 and the NP208 was the J20. This combination is rare and the output from the T-18 is a 31 spline. Only the T-176 (or it's variation) came with the 208 with the 23 spline output.

My knowledge on the pre-80's is limited. I am not sure of the output count on the pre-80 transmissions hooked to the Dana 20.

Hope this helps a little.

[Elliott]

That does help and I edited my 203 mistake in my post, thanks.
Now, where can I locate a 31 spline T18 shaft and will it fit ok in place of my 6 spline?
I'll need to locate a T18-205 adaptor as well, I know Ford used them so I am figuring those T18 shafts were also 31 spline.
I know that I can get an adaptor with a 23 spline T18 shaft that will bolt to the NP205 (Klune-V, for a Dana 300), but I don't know if any of the 205s had a 23 spline input... or if a 23 spline input from a 208 would fit.
To my limited knowledge, all the pre '80 T18s were six spline.

[ December 22, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[scotty]

ok,lots of questions,but let me see if i can clear up some confusion.

-yes,the ford 205 shares the round pattern and 31 spline input withthe 208 used in the jeep t18/208 found in the 80 and up j20s. however,if you find one these rare animals(t18/208s are very scarce) your ford 205 will technically bolt to it,with some grinding on the adapter for 205 shift rail clearance.

however(knew it was coming,didnt ya ;) ) the ford 205 has a much shorter input gear than the 208. wile it will bolt on and work,you will have 1/2 inch at most spline engagement between the tailsahft and input gear :eek: thats not very much. a friend is running that combo,and what we did to make it work was actually get a 2nd ford 205 for parts,cut off the spline portion of the input gear,and weld this extension onto the current input gear. lots of fine snading to get it nice and smooth so it didnt screw up the seal upon installation. sounds kinda hairy,but hes beat the snot out of it for over 2 years now,and so far no prollems whatsoever.hes got it in an xj behind a 258,turning 37" boggers.

- also,if youre wanting to swap the 80 and up adapter and tailshaft into your older t18,thats not gonna work either. the bolt pattern on the back of the case is quite a bit different. you will have to locate and swap the whole tranny.

- no t18 ever came with a factory 23 spline output. a couple of other differences in the 80 and up case is that reverse is on the opposite side of the tranny(and found by shifting over and down,not over and up) and also the pto cover is cast in,and not removeable on the 80 and up t18.

- almost forgot,the dodge 205 uses a 23 spline input,but then your back to a pass side diff. :mad: IMO,the pass side diff is alittle more versatile-there are lots of xfer cases you can use. with a driver side diff,you will be limited to ford stuff,aluminum NP cases,and the atlas smile.gif you may want to consider looking for a chevy or dodge front 60,unless youve located a ford 60 very,very cheap or free.

since both ford and dodge use the circle NP pattern,you could very possibly swap a dodge input gear into a ford 205,and mount that to a t18 thats got the d300 adapter and 23 spline output shaft installed. but thats alot of work,alot of $$,and a fair amount of parts scrounging for the end result.

putting a ford rev cut 60 up front is a great idea,but the easiest way to do it IMO,is to simply use a ford NP 435/205. they are fairly common and should bolt to a t150 or t176 bell with minor mods.youll need a special pilot bushing,that you can get from AA,i believe.use the ford clutch disc with the amc pressure plate.

that,or simply find a pass side drop 60 and run your t18/d20.

further ford drivetrain swap questions? smile.gif

[ December 22, 2002, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Elliott]

That's the help I'm lookin fo.
Problem with the SM tranny is that I'm shortin' the front drive line at least 6" to use it because of the lack of bell housing to tranny adaptor the T18 uses, then the 205 stuffs right up against the SM so that puts the drive line another 1/2 foot shorter all the while my angle is increasing.
Lookin' at SOA and 6" springs so the reverse cut seems like the way to go and that means a driver's side drop (and late model exhaust manifolds to compensate, hmmm... thorley?).
I don't know what the odds are of finding a reverse cut D60, but I know some good places to be looking so I want to plan the transfer case out in case I get the opportunity to offer someone a case of Jack Daniels for the axle I want.
Thanks for the tip on the Dodge 23 spline input gear, that may be easier to find then a post '80 J20 tranny... although I'd like to run 31 splines if I can.

[ December 22, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[Panther]

Originally posted by Elliott:
I read up on panther's post: http://panther4x4.com/t18a/
and was a little confused as the pic is said to show a Jeep T18 with the adaptor and 31 spline output shaft? Earlier in the post I thought he said the Jeep had only 23 spline shaft. If the '80 and '81 T18 had 31 splines and the adaptor then that should be all I need for a NP 205 adaptation.... comments?Sorry for any confusion. I was pointing out that the offroad.com article was inaccurate when saying the T18/208 had a 23 spline output.

Scotty covered all the questions but I just wanted to point out one thing.

Heimeken said in this post (http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004344) that parts mike is providing him with a long shaft T18 for the 23 spline jeep np208. I didn't think this was possible but it's beginning to make sense now. Seeing that the input and output shafts are independant of each other, you can swap in a FSJ V8 long shaft, sleeve and bell housing spacer in the front of the case and adapt the rear output (with aa or novak) for Dana 300 or NP208 with their tailshaft and adapter!

Anyway, here's another post with the ford t18 (http://www.ifsja.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=011992) that might also be helpful.

[scotty]

as far as running 6" lift springs on top of a SOA,i can see why youre wanting to use the rev cut diff,and keep the front driveline as long as possible.

have you considered using a divorced trasnfer case? if you ran a divorced ford 205,you could mount it as far back as you want,at a lower elevation if you wanted,and even clock it however you wanted to,to lower the front output.

you could then run a very short 2wd tranny,and it wouldnt matter,cept for having to bend the sifter to clear the dash.

oooooooorrrr(dont worry,youll like this one :D ) just run it behind your t18/d20. since the 20s output is pass side,and the divorced 205 would be driver side,the d20 wont provide any interferance. youll obviously have to fab new xmembers to support the xfer,but other than that,the only prollem i think youll run into is the divorced xfer wanting to occupy a similar location as the gas tank.

one of my frineds is pretty set on using a divorced dodge 205(pass side drop) behind a ford 435/205(driver drop) in his next project. definately not the lightest drivetrain,but plenty strong enuff,and a pretty cheap way to get multiple low ranges :cool: kind of a "poor mans doubler" ;)

[Elliott]

Yep, now we're talkin'.
Scotty,
I've never even seen a divorced case, so I'll have to check into that.
Another reason for not shortin' the front drive line was to also compensate for the additional 4" of Dana 60 pinion nose length.
Just found a '79 F250 with D60 rear and high pinion D44 front with manual trans... so it probably has NP205. Too bad the front is a D44, for $1,500 with a 400, 6"lift, 37"tires it has lots of usable parts.
I can't run my tcase back too far either 'cause this is a short bed so I've lost 10" or better already.
Panther,
I thought the input and output were all one shaft, thanks for clarifying that...... now if I can find a 31 Spline out put shaft or if one will work from a Ford T18 I'll have an easier startin' point.... use my Jeep tranny, the Dana 300 adaptor and a regular Ford NP205 with the 31 spline input.
I am going to figure that the Ford T18 adaptor to the NP205 is probably a different bolt pattern then the Jeep T18.... but possibly the same as the '80-'81 Jeep T18?

[scotty]

yep,that would be my guess as well,the 80 and up jeep t18 prolly prolly has the same adapter pattern as the ford t18.

i hate to keep giving negative responses for your questions :( but you will not be able to use a ford 205 with the d300 adapter and a ford tailsahft due to the output shaft length. the adapter between a jeep t18/208,a ford np 435/205,and presumably the ford t18/208 or 205(whichever follows it) will all have a 7 inch long adapter between the tranny and xfer. the d300 adpater,being designed for SWB rigs is very short,maybe 3" at most

a divorced xfer case simply has a yoke for the front input,so all thats needed to do is make xmembers to support it,and a short drivesahft going from a 2wd tranny,or from the d20s rear output :D i could have bought a ford divorced 205 for $50 from the same guy i got my winch from,but at the time didnt think id have any uses for such a thing. kinda wouldnt mind havin it sittin around,now smile.gif but they say hindsight is always 20/20,right ;)

[ December 23, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Elliott]

Ok, gotcha on the adaptor differences. I didn't realize they were different lengths.
I found a divorced NP205 with cross member for $100, not sure if it's a Ford.

Do you know of a link where I can see such a set up?
Sounds good to me.

It's probably a good idea to swap on a new D20 tailshaft with more splines.
At present I don't have a fuel tank so.... no obstacle there!!!! Probably stuff a tank in the bed forward of the 20,000lb winch I'm dreamin' of planting between the frame rails.

[scotty]

hmmm,not sure of any links with pics of divorced t cases. if the drop is driver side it will be ford smile.gif chebby and dodge div 205s are both pass side front output.

[Elliott]

I've been looking for some pics of divorced set ups to see how long the whole thing amounts to.
I found a divorced NP205 with xmember for $150 last night.
It sounds like from the back of my D20 to the front of the divorced case would be about 9" for additional front driveshaft length. I have to wonder if that extra length would cause a driveshaft interference problem with the xmember under the D20 as the front axle drops on full articulation?
I like the idea of the longer front driveline to high pinion Dana 60, and the doubler situation.... but it seems like I'm stuffing things back pretty far on the rear driveline and angle considering I'm running about 10" shorter already with the short wheel base.
If the front driveline will clear the D20 xmember, then I can probably spend whatever $$$ I need to get a joint to make the rear driveline angle work... read they go up to $800!!!!

[Cecil14]

You will likely have to "clock" the t-case down a bit to get the driveshaft under the crossmember. Being that far back I don't think it will work going over the xmember at all. Not that big a deal really, just make a xmember that supports the t-case in the position that you need it.

Anthony

[Elliott]

Thanks Anthony,
I've been out of wheelin' way too long, had not thought of that advantage of the divorced t-case being able to clock it.
Might have to go with a SM465 and another NP205 to shorten up the overall length some, without the T18 adaptor to bellhousing that should shorten things up considerably and give me a very stout drive train to boot.

[ December 25, 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Elliott ]