Hydro Assist problem...

[BRUTUS]

Brutus now has hydro assist installed... pics to follow.

My problem is this... the cylinder is 1.50" bore x 8.00" stroke. From everything I had read, 8.00" stroke is more than enough for any hydro assist setup. I installed mine and the ram is at full stroke and I am 1/16" short of my hard stops on either side (after I extended the heim to center everything up).

So the problem is this... IF I turn the wheel past where the ram will extend/retract to, the slack in the system is that the steering box pushes/pulls on the frame instead of turning the wheels. Basically it is all taken up in the upper shackle bushing.

Only thing that I can think of is that I need a shorter pitman arm distance center to center. I can't get a longer ram... To my knowledge there is no adjustable stop in the steering box.

What do you guys WITH hydro assist think?

[jtr]

I try not to turn lock to lock unless it is really needed because it puts a lot of stress on the frame.....exactly what you are experiencing.

[FSJ Guy]

I try not to turn lock to lock unless it is really needed because it puts a lot of stress on the frame.....exactly what you are experiencing.

You haven't met this guy. :D

If he breaks the frame, he's happy because now he knows where to reinforce the weak spots!

[BRUTUS]

I try not to turn lock to lock unless it is really needed because it puts a lot of stress on the frame.....exactly what you are experiencing.

But how do you know you are at the end of the stroke or not? If my knuckles can handle more turning I would like to have more turning... I shouldn't have gotten 1410 steering knuckles if I wasn't going to use them.

Blackbear pass is going to take as much steering AND tractor braking as I can come up with :D

I am actually going to PM Scott with Rockstomper and see what he can come up with.

[jtr]

I guess you could put the front on jack stands, disconnect your ram, and draglink from steering box and manually move the tires from lock to lock. That would tell you the max stroke of your knuckles tied together with your tie rod. Then measure the "actual" stroke of the ram. Compare the differences and ralley.

[BRUTUS]

I guess you could put the front on jack stands, disconnect your ram, and draglink from steering box and manually move the tires from lock to lock. That would tell you the max stroke of your knuckles tied together with your tie rod. Then measure the "actual" stroke of the ram. Compare the differences and ralley.

The thought never crossed my mind before I bought the hydro assist kit but I probably should have checked it.

I am leaning toward doing just that... and having a hydraulic ram made to fit my situation... whatever the dimension comes out to be.

The 1.50x8 ram will be re-cycled (I am thinking GREEN) and used to rear steer my 14 bolt! :D

[HARDCORE pacer]

I used an 8" ram and cut 1 " off the rams length and I get more than lock to lock.

[orangecherokee]

adjust your stops out more or put a longer bolt in there and adjust it out. that's the simple and dirty fix.

[BRUTUS]

adjust your stops out more or put a longer bolt in there and adjust it out. that's the simple and dirty fix.

That will only make the problem worse.

[orangecherokee]

i always heard that once the steering box reached the end of its rotation then it just dumped the pressure. thus steering stops would still work.

Where are the pics anyway? How is it that everyone who does this mod doesn't have their boxes ripping of the frames? Are you assuming that this is happening or do you actually see flex?

[BRUTUS]

i always heard that once the steering box reached the end of its rotation then it just dumped the pressure. thus steering stops would still work.

The steering box is continuing to turn after the ram has maxed out so it isn't getting a chance to dump pressure. The ram maxing out its stroke is discontinuing its NEED for pressure. The only steering stops that would work would limit the travel of the pitman arm. I see what you are saying though... but it only dumps pressure at the end of the steering box stroke... not the ram stroke.

Where are the pics anyway? How is it that everyone who does this mod doesn't have their boxes ripping of the frames? Are you assuming that this is happening or do you actually see flex?

I will get pics/video tonight so you can see what I am saying. In my gut I want to believe that because Dynatrac casts their own knuckles and they supplied my axle with 1410 steering joints and I do not have bolt-adjustable steering stops... Dynatrac knows the angular limit of the u-joint and cast the stop right into the inner and outer C. My thinking is that with 1410 steering joints my axle has more steering capability than a standard D60. Either that or they cast the steering arms further from the axle centerline to clear the diff at full turn. I don't know...

I do know that I am getting around to doing this mod BECAUSE I ripped two steering boxes off my frame on the same moderate trail and ended up having to leave Brutus up there for a night.

http://www.fsjbrutus.com/jeep/Stormmtn/DSC02887.JPG

[Sambo]

if you have done this twice in brutus than something is wrong in your drag link setup:confused: wheels yanking the box off maybe???

[Michael]

I am with you Sambo, if you did that with the "stock" set up then I think you have some thing else going on with your steering....

[orangecherokee]

nasty. i would have thought the rag joint would have been the fuse.

[68glad]

[quote=BRUTUS] Either that or they cast the steering arms further from the axle centerline to clear the diff at full turn. I don't know...

That is what I'm thinking. Every little bit would make a big difference. 68glad

[BRUTUS]

I didn't mention it before but I am pretty sure that the lack of steering damper is what caused the other box failure. The second box I wasn't able to get the top bolts from the bracket to the steering box installed and that is why it failed.

I had intended from the start to have the hydro assist become the "steering damper" I just didn't realize how badly I needed it.

Sorry these videos are so dark... Got home late and then had to go back out for batteries for the disk in my camera... really late when I took these.

Left stop
http://www.fsjbrutus.com/jeep/images/MOV0111.MPG
Right stop
http://www.fsjbrutus.com/jeep/images/MOV0112.MPG
Closeup
http://www.fsjbrutus.com/jeep/images/MOV0113.MPG

[HARDCORE pacer]

why not just get a 2"x9"or10" ram do what Jtr suggested unhook the ram and measure your lock to lock cut the 2" ram to fit. It will be a little slower than a 1.5" but it will work. I have a 2" ram on my wifes willys but it is also full hydro.

[budojeepr]

I kept wondering why you were having this problem and I didn't...just flashed on what I did about this problem with my 8" ram and Dana 60 setup...I got high steer arms from Poison Spyder Customs. They have multiple mount points for the tie rod. I put the tie rod on a mount point closer to the knuckle, which made the wheels turn more per inch of rod travel. I used a drop pitman arm (sorry, 4 years ago, can't remember where from) to get the angles roughly the same.

There's plenty of leverage with the ram, and I've never had a problem with it (other than bending a couple bolts I used as wheel stops). Also, once I straightened out my front spring hangers, I've had no bumpsteer.

[BRUTUS]

why not just get a 2"x9"or10" ram do what Jtr suggested unhook the ram and measure your lock to lock cut the 2" ram to fit. It will be a little slower than a 1.5" but it will work. I have a 2" ram on my wifes willys but it is also full hydro.

I guess I could do that. Only problem is that it will only solve PART of the problem. The fact still remains that my pitman arm has too much travel. The longer ram only gets me to my hard stops either way. I don't want a 2" because I plan on going down the highway with this and enjoy responsive steering. The 1.5" ram feels slow to me... I can't even imagine the 2" ram.

The more I think about it I am thinking the solution lies in shortening the center-to-center distance of my pitman arm. I think I will heat up the joint at the steering box and bend it down slightly further. Once I have the pitman arm where I want it I will have it re-heat treated.

[Desert Beast]

quit messin around and just go full hydraulic already. :thumbsup:


your rigs startin to look like mine. :D :cool:

[BRUTUS]

your rigs startin to look like mine. :D :cool:

SHHHHHHHHH...

I feel like it needs to be WORTHY of a "trail rated" badge before I actually put them on. :D

[Desert Beast]

meh, i think its earned its badge. if you wheel it hard enough to f-it up like you, i think its trail ready. :thumbsup: ;)

if you aint breaking stuff, you aint wheeling hard enough. http://rockbrawlers.com/images/smiles/headbang.gif