New selling technique - recommend fraud to FSJ'ers!

[JPSwapMohn]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Kaiser-Wagoneer-trim-tag-plate-serial-number-1414C_W0QQitemZ250246895516QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m250246895516&

:whistle:
OK, so I guess a good way to get bids on your item is to offer suggestions on how it might be used, but this person is suggesting fraud and i guess they assume that we FSJ owners are so smart we would think this is a good idea!

Unbelievable!

[PlumCrazy]

It just ain't right

Wayne S

[Gambler68]

Wow he has alot of fsj parts for sale too. Yah..the vin tag..I really can't figure out what he's thinking. It's one thing to swap vins and titles on a project truck (legal? no. But I'd do it to one of mine, and wouldn't sell it afterwards). But the way he posts it..sorta shifty.

[red mistress]

Wow he's really setting himself for federalies...:eek:

I've seen NOS blank vin plates on ebay before....kinda thought that was fishey.

[babywag]

It's a federal offense...obviously not a bright individual.

eBay will end that listing in a heartbeat, and he'll probably be contacted by the authorities.

[jaber]

The federalies will keep it going to see who bids so they can get more! :eek: :banghead:

[Long&Low]

What good is a tag without a title?

[Justin Kerns]

What good is a tag without a title?

In some states its pretty easy to get a replacement title.

[mdill]

I don't know what the big deal is, he is selling a Vin tag, I don't see the crime. Buying it as a souvenir, decoration ... no big deal. Buying it and using it to miss-represent a vehicle now that would be a crime.

Mike D.

[JPSwapMohn]

I don't know what the big deal is, he is selling a Vin tag, I don't see the crime. Buying it as a souvenir, decoration ... no big deal. Buying it and using it to miss-represent a vehicle now that would be a crime.

Mike D.

In his ad, he offers the suggestion of using it for the later part of your statement.

[mdill]

"Suggesting" and "Doing" are two different things.

You can suggest that I rob a bank to pay for my FSJ addiction, no big deal, It would be my stupid if I actually did it.

Mike D.

[COLOFIREMAN]

"Suggesting" and "Doing" are two different things.

You can suggest that I rob a bank to pay for my FSJ addiction, no big deal, It would be my stupid if I actually did it.

Mike D.

I think he's suggesting that one should make there vehicle older, i.e. to bypass emissions, Maybe not that I thought of that. Wait what am I saying I would lose my job! :D

[CougarCJ]

Couple of questions:

Is this screwed on tag the official and only stampings on FSJ's?
Is there not a frame stamp or section of the body that has a premanent stamp?

Would my 1414DS tag be worth more than this 1414C tag?:p Inquiring minds want to know. LOL

[Dirtball]

Why are we worried about it? If he wants to be stupid then let him be stupid... if he's not, then he's not...

Let's talk about our trucks instead... :thumbsup:

[Poley]

is that legal???

[mdill]

is that legal???

Yes unfortunately, it is legal to be stupid :D

Mike D.

[incommando]

As to legal, what you can do varies widely from state to state. Also, selling a VIN tag & then attaching it to a vehicle are seperate matters. Attaching it to a vehicle & then selling the vehicle as described by the "new" VIN tag is yet something else, and I am pretty sure that to do so would be theft just about everywhere.

[babywag]

As to legal, what you can do varies widely from state to state. Also, selling a VIN tag...

NOT TRUE!

It is illegal to remove a VIN tag.
It is illegal to posess a VIN tag, that isn't attached to a vehicle.
It is illegal to sell a VIN tag.

The laws are VERY clear on this. Some state laws are even more strict than federal laws.

We took a class when I was in school for autobody. They went through legitimate scenarios, and every other possibility.

[gwinn]

is that legal???
Yes, it is legal to sell any part on your vehicle (unless its an ashtray full of roaches). It is even legal to suggest to others how they can break the law to use those parts. It is also legal to buy it. It doesn't become illegal until you try to title vehicle with the fraudulent vin tag.
Is someone gonna' get caught using this VIN tag? Most likely not. There are no authorities watching this piddly auction trying to catch some poor jeeper buying it to use in attempt to pass his AMC Wagoneer off as a Kaiser to dodge emmisions.

Edit: I just read babywag's post. My info came from a cop, not a law book. As I've proven in court a few times now, cops don't always know their laws as well as they think. ;) I'd go with the book if I saw it in writing.

On a separate note: Why the heck are the pages on this friggen thread so wide?

[babywag]

It's a felony plain and simply.
State laws apply as well.

There are 2 relevant sections that apply, under Title 18....

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.

Sec. 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with
intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle
part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or
part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be
fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply if the removal, obliteration,
tampering, or alteration--
(1) is caused by collision or fire; or
(2) is not a violation of section 511 of this title.

(c) As used in this section, the terms ``identification number'' and
``motor vehicle'' have the meaning given those terms in section 511 of
this title.

I agree that if you own the vehicle, no big deal, never sell it etc.
But, NOT something you want to play around with.
They WILL come knocking on your door about things like this.

[Casey]

It's a felony plain and simply.
State laws apply as well.

There are 2 relevant sections that apply, under Title 18....

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.

Sec. 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with
intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle
part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or
part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be
fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply if the removal, obliteration,
tampering, or alteration--
(1) is caused by collision or fire; or
(2) is not a violation of section 511 of this title.

(c) As used in this section, the terms ``identification number'' and
``motor vehicle'' have the meaning given those terms in section 511 of
this title.

I agree that if you own the vehicle, no big deal, never sell it etc.
But, NOT something you want to play around with.
They WILL come knocking on your door about things like this.
That's good info.

I could have lived the rest of my life without reading it.

Thanks

[COLOFIREMAN]

Yes unfortunately, it is legal to be stupid :D

Mike D.


That's good info.

I could have lived the rest of my life without reading it.

Thanks

:lol: :lol:


Yes, Yes, here in Colorado it's very bad here too, and by bad I mean do not pass go bad. Now if the vin tag was only used for display then I don't see anything that would make it illegal. That being said I think it's the only way the seller could explain should the question ever be rised by his/her local doughnut eaters.:D

[incommando]

Where it gets confusing is that it is illegal if you are doing it to commit a fraud or theft. Hanging a VIN from a junked '45 CJ2A on a plaque on the wall is not a instantly a Federal crime. Using it to replace the VIN on another jeep is.

I do not know the laws in various states, though. Removing the VIN from a decent vehicle is stupid, as it renders the vehicle subject to destruction.

[jeepguzzi]

If it is illegal (and I believe that it is) then we could mess with him and bid thousands of dollars for that VIN tag. Get it up to like 25-30 thousand bucks. We wouldn't have to actually pay it, because you can't enforce a contract based on an illegal act.:D :thumbsup: