Well here goes the rust repair! Questions...

[JeepFreak]

Well after looking for a decently priced replacement Cherokee or body and frame I have decided to just bite the bullet and repair what I have. Now I can handle just about anything mechanical you throw at me but I got to tell you that body work scares me. Things I need to do are to repair a rusted rear floor and c-channel with a donor floor from my 75 Wag. Then I will replace the front floorboards that have been patched with the ones from the Wag as well. Then there is the frame issue! Well the Cherokee's rear portion of the frame is getting a little thin if you know what I mean. The rear spring hangers have rusted away and have been rigged for the time being. So the plan is to swap the 75's frame which is in excellent shape for the frame under the Cherokee. The only major problem I see with the swap of the frame is the rear spring hangers as they are the post type. But this is ok because I was looking to run a different style mount on the frame other than what the Cherokee had. Why go back with something that holds water and mud leading to rust anyway. Does anyone have any pointers on cutting out the Wags floors and welding in the Cherokee? I have a nice Miller Mig to weld with but really the welding part is not what scares me. Its more the fit and finish. I know once I make that first cut there is no turning back. The wags frame is going off to be sandblasted on Monday so I am itching to get started. So how about it...Any pointers? Wish a body man lived close that needed some motor work done...But that's my luck for living in the bonnies.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]</p>

[Lindel]

Wish I could offer advice, but I'm in the same position that you're in. I'll be starting on mine soon, myself.

The C channel we can get from JC Whitney, I believe.

[JeepFreak]

Really! Wow that would be too cool if I can get just the C-channel section. Have you seen that there before? That is the main problem with mine. I think I will go out tonight and figure out how to pull off the rear flares. Don't want that cancer to spread past the flares.

[Lugnut]

I'm not a body man either, but I bought an air chisel at the local auto parts store for either $19. or $29., can't really remember. If you're gonna try to cut out some floorboards the chisel will prob. be handy in many areas.
Are the floor parts in the Wag really in such good shape that it's worth all the work getting them out to put in the Cherokee? I haven't really tried, but surely someone offers floor pieces for the Wags. As I've noticed these pieces are usually pretty reasonably priced, certainly reasonable enough to to justify avoiding all the work to try to get them out of a donor vehicle intact and reusable.

[JeepFreak]

Well to be honest I haven't looked. I wasen't aware anyone was still making floors for these things. What was that link for the body parts with the online catalog. Think it was Raybucks. Maybe I should check them out first before I start hacking up the Wags pristine body.

[miked]

zack heinesy (jeez, hope i spelled his lname correct...) had complete aftermarket FSJ floorboards available last i heard from him

ahh, here we go:

&gt; From: Zack Heisey [mailto:zheisey@twcny.rr.com]
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 7:07 PM
&gt; To: mike d'ambrogia
&gt; Subject: Re: 69 wag floor pans
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; These floor pans are aftermarket repros that come in left and right form.
&gt; They are shippable, and the cost is $125 for the pair, plus shipping.
They
&gt; are $75 each. Please contact me if you are interested. Thanks,
&gt;
&gt; Zack Heisey
&gt; Z&M Jeep Parts and Literature
&gt; http://users.success.net/zmjeeps
&gt; zmjeeps@twcny.rr.com

[Ralph]

Just a little secret, but I got so obsessed with rust removal on the J10 project that I went through 18 x 100 lbs bags of white silica, sandblasting everything that looked even remotely suspicious. Now, just over a week after the paint job, a couple of tiny rust spots have bled through the white paint where we welded. I guess fresh weld is really quick to rust. Rats!

[JeepFreak]

Oh man that sucks! Did you do the paint yourself? That is my worst fear. Would hate to go threw all that work just to have it rust again.

[Ralph]

Well, let me just say this about that:

I learned a very valuable lessone on this project. All the mechanical stuff -- engine & tranny rebuild, new tie rods, brakes, blah-blah-blah -- doesn't amount to a hill of beans compared to the amount of work it takes to repair a rusted truck. I was fortunate to have an unlimited amount of free time to work on this project, and still with a very skilled body/paint man to guide me and do the hard work it took nine days -- every waking hour. And still it didn't come out a gleaming example of Jeep perfection.

I will from now on be extremely thorough checking out rust when buying a Jeep. Even surface rust, because what you can see is just the tip of the iceberg. I've got my sites on a 1987 Grand Wag from Texas that has a beat up interior, clearcoat worn off the paint, runs okay with 102k miles, etc. Couldn't care less about any of it except that I looked it over carefully and it is completely rust-free save for surface rust on the frame and towing hitch.

[imported_Big Red]

Jeep Freak,
Body work is almost an art...well it is to the big time restorers. If you are looking for something perfect or close to, leave it to the professional. If not just start cuttin'. I have been doing it for about 12 years as a hobby now and you only get better if you practice. Pick up a book from the library. I know that sounds stupid but it helps. If you need any answers to questions I will try to help. Check out my web page in my signature and you will see how difficult somethings can be. Good luck and don't be scared! It can always be fixed.

[JeepFreak]

Well lucky for me my rig will be used so being perfect is not a problem. I just want everything to be structurally sound and to weather proof the inside. I have beat my rig for sometime now and water crossings and constant mud packed into every little crease has taken it's toll. Not looking for all original just functionality.

[gp_frk]

I'm kinda new to all this FSJ stuff so bare with me here. I made the mistake of buying a cheap CJ off a guy here in Houston and not looking over the body as well as I should have. Well needless to say i could have changed the oil in the rear diff from the bed of the jeep. I went for functional over looks as well. I work for a sheetmetal compant :D so materials were and equip were not a problem and neither was a sic and twisted imagination.

Enter full 14ga. G 90 galvanized bed :D the only thing I didn't like was i did not have a welder so I rigged up some brackets and sandwiched the finder wells between them. Worked pretty well. Then I hurculined the entire thing. Then I sold the POS.

[243]

JeepFreak~

If I were to ask for a bodyshop to perform major rust repair plus general bodywork and a nice paint job, I would expect it to cost 2K-3K minimum. Maybe more depending on the shop and location.

I want my 75 to be as rust free as possible but somewhere, no matter how careful the prep and paint work, rust will reappear eventually. Even after spending 2K-3K from a quality bodyshop. On the other hand, 2K-3K less materials will buy me all the tools I need to do the rust repair and prep and many tools that will be useful for other tasks. I will not be able to do the job in 6 weeks but I will be able to do it well.

It is a challenge but you and most everyone else can repair rust and dents as well or better than the best bodyshop. We won't have access to all the cool tools so it will take longer and be mental torture until it's finished.

I posted a while back about removing doors skins. I see no possible way to clean, remove rust and prep the doors without removing the skins. I also want access to the window regulator and lockset in each door so I see removing the skins as the best option. I do not have the cash to have everything acid dipped so I am going to do it my way. I will buy a used door from pick a part and remove/replace the skin for practice.

If you have another vehicle to drive, I think you will be better off doing all the work yourself.

Good Luck!

[JeepFreak]

That's some great info 243. How much does the acid dipping run anyway? I know you can get all the rust that way but usually they need to dip prime it after the acid.

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]</p>

[Ralph]

Yes, dipping would be the best way, but it's an awful lot of work to completely strip a body part, much less hope to get it back together again.

There's a great dipping company here in Columbus called RediStrip (http://www.redistrip.com/). They have dual pricing schemes for dipping processes to remove just paint or to remove paint and rust. Either way, they post-dip the object in a rust-inhibitor; this isn't permanent, but it will last long enough for you to get the item back to the shop and work on it. It's unbelievable how clean the metal is when you get it back.

Here are some samples from their price list (paint & rust removal):

Frames 300.00 – 400.00
Rear End Housings (Bare) 50.00
Body Shells (Firewall Back) 450.00 – 650.00
Fender 55.00 – 75.00
Door 55.00 – 75.00
Hood 75.00 – 115.00
Deck Lids 50.00 – 85.00
Inner Fender 25.00 – 35.00
Leaf Springs (Pair) 40.00 – 60.00
Truck Cab (Regular) 300.00 – 400.00
Truck Bed (6-8 ft.) 300.00 – 400.00

[JeepFreak]

Actually the body shell dip is all I would be intrested in. It's places like up under the cross floor supports that would be next to impossible to get at. Dipping the doors might be an option as well if you could get all the guts out without having to remove the door skins.

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

JF DRILL OUT ALL SPOT WELDS WHEN YOU ARE REPLACING ANY PANELS...IT MAKES FOR A CLEAN JOB,THEN JUST WELD IT UP.... YOU CAN BUY A SPOT WELD DRILL BIT AT A AUTO PARTS STORE.... IT LOOKS LIKE A HOLE SAW.....JUST A LITTLE SUGGESTION. ..... smile.gif :cool:

[JeepFreak]

Hey Gary you always pop up when needed! Point well taken. I will be sure to get one.

[looch]

Distortion is your major enemy when repairing thin sheet metal. Whatever you use, make sure that the fitup is near perfect w/o overlap of material. Then weld in such a way that the heat is distributed evenly (start on one corner, go a couple of inches, go to the opposite corner, etc.--kind of like torqueing down lug nuts). As far as rear flares go--try raybucks. They have fiberglass ones (i.e. no rust). Be careful about how you cut the old ones off though, because these replacements are not a two panel design like the original. After welding, repairing, etc. coat the bejesus out of it with a quality primer and paint, and make sure to fix any water holding areas with either more weld (preferable) or seam sealer. I would avoid the galvanized if you plan on welding it yourself---not so good for the body. A wire wheel on a drill or angle grinder will do an excellent job on most surface rust. Hope that I have been of assistance.

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

JF.... JUST ONE THING...RALPH WAS SAYING ABOUT RUST COMING THROUGH THE WHITE PAINT....FROM WELDING!! ...WELL!! THIS TRICK WORKS GOOD FOR THAT...SPOT SAND BLAST...ALL WELDS!!... BEFORE YOU PRIMER....A GOOD THING TO TRY IS A....SPOT SAND BLASTER...THE KIND, THAT YOU LOAD THE SAND IN THE TOP AND HOLD IN YOUR HAND...I THINK YOU CAN GET ONE UNDER 30.00 smile.gif :cool:

[TexasJ10]

Would it help to spray the entire body after sandblasting or sanding with POR 15? I know it's expensive, but not as expensive as having to redo it. I know you have to top coat the stuff, but that would be alright. I have had really good luck witht he product, but I have ony used it in small areas. I guess it only sticks good to bare metal and rust as well, so all paint would have to go.

[Shake]

Just curious, anyone got a current URL for Zack's ZM jeeps?

Andy

[243]

I did email him but have not received a reply.

[Lugnut]

Here are some things I've discovered in the last few years:
1. 4 years ago I attempted to restore my '78 CJ-7 and discovered that I'M NOT A BODYMAN.
2. If you're gonna try to do body repair so that it will last a reasonable amount of time you gotta remove all rusted metal and start with new metal otherwise the rust WILL COME BACK in as short a time as one year.
3. I think chemical dipping is far better than sand-blasting in arresting rust but you're talking about one heck of a lot of work to strip down a body of all it's components so that it can be dipped. Sand-blasting, on the other hand can be done without complete stripping of components but that darned sand will get into every little area you don't cover up tightly, and most suction type sand blasters aren't really much good, you need one of the pressure-style sand blasters. No matter how much you cover yourself up expect to have sand in all your body openings (your own body), ears, hair, well you get the idea.
4. Two years ago I set out to find a bodyshop that would consider fixing my '83 pickup. 99% of all bodyshops don't wanna fiddle with what amounts to a restoration project. They don't have the space or the extra time to do such a job. Most bodyshops are only interested in quick collision repair' cause that's where the money is.
I finally found a guy who would do the work necessary to ensure a good job. He told me the only way he would do it would be if he could work on it only when he had the extra time and that I couldn't pressure him about getting the job done and, he would not guarantee the rust would not return. In fact, he said the rust WOULD return. He did do a good job, cut out rusted metal, etc., but it cost me $4000. and 14 months without my vehicle.
The only reason I spent the money (and did I ever spend the money) is because these two particular vehicles really struck my fancy.
The CJ restoration is now 4 years old and it's starting to really show it's age. The rust is returning, but the mechanicals are holding up good.
I'm looking for ways to protect my investment on the pickup, rust-proofing, etc.
People where I work ask me what to look for in a car when purchasing. I ALWAYS tell them consider the condition of the sheetmetal. If it's got rust don't even consider buying it if it's something they are gonna wanna keep. Walk away from it. The mechanicals you can fix, the bodywork is just too expensive and if it's gotta have extensive bodywork then it's never gonna be more than a decent driver, never collectable.
5. For some screwball reason I let my emotions overload my reasoning and I too often end up doing just what I advise other people to not do.
6. I've just used the POR-15 product and I'm quite impressed with it. The literature says you can even paint a rusted area with the POR-15 and body filler WILL bond to it if you do it right. BUT, I figure you gonna have a heck of a time trying to convince a bodyman of that after you've gone to the trouble and expense of arresting all the rust areas on your vehicle using POR-15 and then taking the vehicle to him to patch and paint.
JeepFreak, I know you're just wanting to get your's into some sound condition, but if it's just gonna be an off-roader I wouldn't do a darned thing to it cosmetically. Just screw some metal over the holes that splash mud on you and keep on truckin'.

[Jerk]

well here's my op- I too am not a body man but can do some of it, patching holes with gas torch, sanding, crap like that. panel repair is not an easy task, floor boards are no exception, I have replaced 2, my passenger side,1 piece- stainless steel, and my cousin's driver side seperate pieces, also stainless steel, I used 309 stainless wire, neccessary to join mild steel to stainless on a hobart 120 handler-.035" wire. this was a pain, it burns through, it piles up, it don't run pretty at all, but that's what grinders are for right? also, the one piece floor board warped way bad and I backstepped it, and intermittent welded it, the seperate pieces did too, but not nearly as bad, the one piece, I tried to "spot" weld through 5/16" holes i drilled over all supports, the seperate pieces, I backstepped and welded around the pieces to the supports, and surounding steel. actually, i didn't use stainless wire for the seperate pieces and it was a lot easier, but surface rusted before it was painted a week later. my dad did his floorboards in mild steel sheets and used e70 wire, he's a professional welder though and has been for 30 years! needless to say his floorboards look better than mine and my cousin's! I guess that's why they sell big floor mats hunh? :D anyway, if you dit yourself...it won't be easy at all, and might not even be good looking, depends on your patience and skill. goodluck!

[Jerk]

243, you don't have to remove the doorskins to get to the door/window actuators, I've pulled several of these out and it is a pain, but doable with door intact. find a tsm, and it will tell you how to do it, there are some tricks, too. I just don't wanna tell you what they are! right now. for serious, if you need in-depth instructions, email me, and I'll see what I can do for you. -Matt
ps- I still tink you is cwazyee for wanting a skinkity ol' diesel in a wag tongue.gif
Also, I have repaired door actuator stems, its kinda afro-engineered, but all the parts are jeep parts and made to go together! haven't done window stuff, just pulled from the door, no fixes yet.

[jeepbob]

Here is my advice. You can get the c channel thru JCWhitney and for the inner rockers take 5x2 retangular tubing (thinwall)and make 2 5x1 "[" channels out of it and it is the perfect size for the niiner rockers. After all the work has ben done and blasted paint it with zinc cromate primer then seam seal. scuff the floors and under side then shoot body color. You can zinc cromate the outside of the body too and then go to your normal sand and fill primer and paint.

[Gladi8r]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GEMOBX/77/401:
JF.... JUST ONE THING...RALPH WAS SAYING ABOUT RUST COMING THROUGH THE WHITE PAINT....FROM WELDING!! ...WELL!! THIS TRICK WORKS GOOD FOR THAT...SPOT SAND BLAST...ALL WELDS!!... BEFORE YOU PRIMER....A GOOD THING TO TRY IS A....SPOT SAND BLASTER...THE KIND, THAT YOU LOAD THE SAND IN THE TOP AND HOLD IN YOUR HAND...I THINK YOU CAN GET ONE UNDER 30.00 smile.gif :cool: <hr></blockquote>


There is some blasting media called CrystalGrit that is supposed to help stop the flash rusting too :D

Crystal Grit (http://www.sandblaster.com/products/Abrasives/crystalgrit.htm)

[JeepFreak]

WOW thanks for all the great info guys. That would be hard to take thinking my rig would start rusting again after body work though. So if it's gonna rust again I may as well do the work myself so in another 4 years I will still have money to do it again.

[Dan G]

Somebody posted about getting an air chisel to cut the old out? I'd go for the air SHEAR instead, it gives a much cleaner cut with much less distortion of that which is to remain, and it's easy to control and operate.

Body work is an art, and I'm no artist, unless you want your vehicle to look like a Salvadore Dahli with everything distorted and all. To get it right it takes a special hand. Give me bolts and ratches any day over body work.

I'd POR15 the frame, and give it a coat of paint over that (POR15 is NOT UV stabilized and will break down in the sun). I used it on my driver side floor board under the carpet and am very happy with it. When you're done, the surface is practically ceramic.

If you just plan on wheeling, have a go at it and see how it turns out. The money you save means that you can do it again for less and have more experience when you need to do it the second time.

[Jerk]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dan G:
Body work is an art, and I'm no artist, unless you want your vehicle to look like a Salvadore Dahli with everything distorted and all.<hr></blockquote>

What, you don't like melted clocks and and deserts? I think Dahli actually was working for ford in the mid 90s, hence the taurus and f-150! :D :D :D -Matt