AMC360 to NP435 clutch question

[4x4fEvEr]

ok so i got the advance adapters clutch kit for my setup using a T176 bellhousing off a 304 everything went together as it should but now my clutch linkage doesnt have enough throw to dissengage the clutch. do i need to get a longer rod for adjustment of a different throw out bearing with a thicker collar to fix this. right now the stock piece on the zbar is two inches long and it all the way out doesnt even come close to letting me put the jeep in gear. whats the best solution for this >?

[Cecil14]

On the throwout bearing, is it the old round style that has two grooves? If so, which groove did you use? Or is it the flat style that hooks onto the fork?

When I did my clutch with the T-18 my linkage was bent up. I ended up using some small rerod that was laying around and bent what I needed.


aa

[4x4fEvEr]

honestly i dont remember. i put the clutch back in almost a year ago. i just now got around to firing it up last month. im a little slow on my build. most people are saying i just need to lengthen my rod i may try that just because it beats the hell out of pullin the tcase and tranny to check out the clutch and throwout bearing.

[Cecil14]

Yah, as long as there's enough throw in the fork just get a rod long enough to do the job. :)


aa

[4x4fEvEr]

made the rod longer and i actually had to pull against the steering wheel with my *** off the seat to get the clutch pedal all the way down. ended up bending the piece holding the zbar in place. sooo obviously the length of the rod is not the problem. what the hell is? i have the square style throwout bearing is this the right thing what could be wrong in there? im thinking about giving advance adapters a call to see if they have had other people run into this problem and their solution. really would like to be wheeling this thing

[JeepsAndGuns]

If you haveing to put that much pressure on it, then there is definately something not right. If I was you I would be pulling the trans to inspect things. But thats just me.

[4x4fEvEr]

yeah im gonna pull it but id like to know what to look for or what to pull out for a cure when i get it apart . i know we put it on right and i used the correct clutch fork. i just cant understand why it wont disengage

[JeepsAndGuns]

check and make sure the throwout bearing slides smoothly on the trans snout. Remove the clutch and check the pressure plate for any signs of damage. Make sure none of the fingers are bent, and make sure its not defectave. Though I dont really know of a way to check a pressure plate when its not installed? But you never know, there could be something wrong with it.

[4x4fEvEr]

good ideas! i was getting ready to tear into today till i realized i had to pull the wheels off and put it on itty bitty jackstands just to get my jack to reach the trans, so i passed on it. ill save it for this weekend. if its defective i guess im screwed since ints been installed for almost a year just never ran.
anybody else have an idea?

[4x4fEvEr]

talked to advance mentioned by bellhousing may be too long??? is there more than one lenght on a t-176 bellhousing?

[orangecherokee]

I have the same problem but mine will shift. i used the wrong bell but it works. you're supposed to use a T4 or T5 on a 465 and a T176 on a 435. oh well, like i said it works. I had both styles of T176 and didn;t notice any depth difference but I can;t be positive since I got rid of the other one that didn't work.

I'm very interested in this and would love to know what you find out.

[Elliott]

What's the measurement on your bell, front to rear?
The only differences I know of on the T176 bell are the size of the openings for the clutch fork.

[orangecherokee]

yup, that's what I thought. it would be interesting to see the difference in the T4/T5 and the T176.

[Elliott]

Sounds like you have the Ford throwout bearing... AA should be able to advise you on this, but I think you should be using the Jeep throwout bearing and yeah... it's going to be thicker prolly give you the throw you need. There is a lot of difference between the two throwout bearings. Might be able to pick up some tech on that at Novak's site...

I seriously doubt there is any difference in depth between T176 bell housings, there were at least two different arms though.

[orangecherokee]

I thought I was using the correct throw-out. In fact, I know I did. I had 2 arms but they looked the same. What were the major differences?

[4x4fEvEr]

i havent pulled mine yet but the bearing is the style with the square back and tabs for the clutch fork to attach on. i dunno if thats ford or amc? AA says there are differences but i wasnt aware of any as well. hope to tear into mine this weekend to find the problem, its the only thing keeping me from wheeling, that and im broke, married and have a kid on the way.

[Elliott]

The square style is the Ford unit, not positive... but I would think that since it's a Jeep bell that you probably want to be using the Jeep throwout bearing...
On the Jeep arms, I'm not sure what the differences are but Novak's site may describe them.

[orangecherokee]

Could someone post up a pic of the correct throw-out bearing? Maybe I'm confoosed :confused:

Found this on a search:

http://www.offroaders.com/info/tech-corner/project-cj7/project-cj7-clutch.htm

thoughts?

[orangecherokee]

New news:

Called Novak ( i think the world of these guys) and they walked through my system with me. After looking at the last post I posted I asked about the clutch arm arrangement. he asked if it sat forward, perpendicular or rearward. I told him perpendicular and he said there was my problem. The clutch arm needs to sit forward and have the exact same degree of motion forward as backwards. ie - 7 degrees forward, 7 degrees back.

He then talked about the throw out bearings and gave me a part number for the longer bearing. The bearing I'm using is 1.2" long (Part# 614115) and the one I need is 1.5" long (Part# 614034). This should correct my arm and allow for a more natural feeling clutch instead of one that hits a wall (arm bottoming out on the bell).

Just thought I'd share :thumbsup:

edit: part numbers have been corrected!

[rustywagoneers_com]

Good info.

Looking forward to hearing how it all works out.

peace
Dave

[Billygoat]

Just FYI the T4/T5 and T176 Housing are the same length, and clutch arm location (from what I could tell) In my CJ I mounted a T5 to a T176 housing, worked fine, the T176 has both the narrow & wide tranny bolt pattern the T4/T5 is the only narrow - I did have to tap a couple holes in the T176 housing.

[orangecherokee]

yeah i took my wanted ads down. i really just wanted to get one just in case this didn't work out but I'll wait. i found one for $45 which I think is a good deal. i can't afford much more than that.

[4x4fEvEr]

if thats a ford then its wrong. my order sheet reads i recieved an amc throwout bearing. i gotta pull this thing apart to find the real problem. my clutch arm sits perpendicular as well. ****

[orangecherokee]

well, SOB it's the wrong part number. I'm going to go back and edit my post. I went to pick it up today and it's not the right one. I however got the guy to order 2 different throw-out bearings and I'm going in tomorrow to compare differences in depth/length.

I swear Novak are the absolute nicest people on earth but stuff like this makes me shake my head. hopefully, i'll have the right part tomorrow. tonight, i dih into my tranny set up.

[BlackBart]

When Bigun and I built Crom, we put a new clutch in it, and it would not disengage. Seems the clutch disc was a smidgen larger in diameter than it needed to be and the pressure plate bolts were grabbing the clutch disc. We replaced them with header bolts, and it worked fine. Something to check.

[orangecherokee]

part numbers have been corrected and i have what I believe is the correct one now. I also pulled the tranny last night and pulled the clutch fork out as well. it looked like it was hitting in a couple places so I broke out the grinder and smoothed down the fat parts. I'll get pics up later but for now I have to install everything back in it.

[4x4fEvEr]

went to my grandmothers this weekend and i found a different T176 bellhousing, or so i think? it looks just like mine but has the smaller opening for the clutch fork. got me thinking i need to use this bell. check it out. i also noticed that the one with the larger hole, the one im using on my jeep currently also used a different clutch fork, the type the has two round tabs to hold the throwout bearing. a side by side comparison shows that the fork im using on the bellhousing with the large opening is not correct and i need to use the other housing. but its cracked , can it be welded up ? the circled white part is the cracks.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing1.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing8.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing7.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing9.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing11.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k105/visualinhalant/T176bellhousing4.jpg

[-Bluegill-]

Cast aluminum is very tricky for repairing cracks, forget most arc welding processes; best repairs I've made on cast (or seen other pros make) was oxy-fuel brazed. Be sure to take it to someone you trust who definitely knows what they're doing as a blacksmith.

[yankeedog]

hmmm makes me wonder.if it will not disengage i am thinking you have a parts mismatch somewhere.i am no expert in this regard but it sounds like the input shaft on your transmission is too short for your application.i think that when you pressed down on the clutch as you did that the throw out bearing got hung up on the input shaft snout and now wont unstick itself .now this is just keyboard speculation mind you.but it does not sound unreasonable.

[4x4fEvEr]

pulled the clutch off, everything looked fine so put the clutch back on and then slid the alignment tool on and pushed in the clutch. it released and the clutch disc could be spun by the alignment tool. put the tranny on and couldnt get the output shaft to turn with the clutch in. thought that the snout on the front of tranny was pushing against clutch disc so i cut off 1/4" and reinstalled went on easier, tried to turn output again , would only turn with the assistance of chanel lock pliers, thought surely it would work so i put the whole thing back together and well, it still wont release.

when i called advance adapters last week they mentioned the clutch disc being in backwards, im pretty sure its in right, but just in case, which way is right:? the side with more spring goes towards the engine sitting inside of the flywheel or towards the tranny?

[JeepsAndGuns]

Most clutch discs that I have seen have a "engine side" stamp somewhere on them. But IIRC, the side that sticks out more goes to the engine side.

[orangecherokee]

hey doods, i uploaded some pics of the two throw-out bearings. i also got some pics of where i shaved part of the fork. take look if you're interested.

you can definitely tell the difference in thickness. also i only shaved about 1/8-1/4" off the fatest part of the fork where I thought it might be hitting.

http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/Clutch%20Issues/

[4x4fEvEr]

got yours back together OC?

i called AA and the clutch disc is in correctly. something on the tranny is binding up. either a bushing problem or the front bearing retainer on the tranny is pushing against the disc.

[orangecherokee]

Plan to this week sometime. I've just been slammed with yard work and mowing. I got a new spring for the fork and I'm going to put that in as well. I've noticed a place where my fork is/was hitting a bolt head. I'll snap some pics and show you what I mean.

I think it's going to work like a champ once I get it back together (or at least I hope). I would look at the movement of the fork with the boot off to see if it's hitting anywhere.

[4x4fEvEr]

never even noticed this till last nite, but the front bearing retainer on my 435 has been broken and welded back. me thinks this could be part of my dillema. possibly not put back on straight. lookin to get a new one for it and try again.

[orangecherokee]

yeah i found my problem too. when i adapted the bell the bolt that I used was sticking up too far and the edge of the fork was striking it on the way back. that's why the clutch was so stiff. it owuld move pretty good until one spot and then get real tight. i think with the bearing swap and this I won't have anymopre problems.

[JeepsAndGuns]

never even noticed this till last nite, but the front bearing retainer on my 435 has been broken and welded back. me thinks this could be part of my dillema. possibly not put back on straight. lookin to get a new one for it and try again.


Probably didnt get welded back on straight. That could cause some problems. Hopefully you can find a new one somewhere.:cool:

[4x4fEvEr]

talked to a guy who deals in these alot and apparently its pretty common on 435 especially the dodge trannies. hitting the junkyard saturday. this has to be the problem, theres nothing else it could be .

[orangecherokee]

well, bringing this back up for an update.

ordered the new slave cylinder that I gernaded so hopefully it'll be here this week.

I spent all day reinstalling the tranny and doubler. I tried something new this time. I kept it all in one piece and tried to install it because I didn't want to unhook all the linkages and adapters. well, this was by far the biggest PITA install I've messed with. note to self... install the doubler after the tranny goes in.

Anyway, the new bearing looks good and I found where I had adapted the bellhousing to the 465 that there was one bolt that sat underneath the shift fork. Well, the fork was hitting the head when it swung back so I took it out and ground the head down about half way. Now it sits in there free and clear of the fork when it comes back.

Also, an important note. If you look back you'll see where I said I spoke with Novak and they said the fork should be sitting forward slightly and should have equal throw both forward abd back. Well, my fork wasn't until now. The fork now sits forward and looks like I have plenty of throw that I never had. I won't know anything until I get the salve in there but so far so good!

[4x4fEvEr]

hope yours works. i cant finda front bearing retainer for mine. guess imma just buy a whole tranny for a spare and mine "should" work.