Possible to upgrade to larger brakes? = YES!

[babywag]

Is it possible to install larger brakes on a waggy??

Are there any larger rotors/calipers that will bolt up?

[ October 16, 2005, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: babywag ]

[Gawdzilla.]

you can buy pads for a 75(?) GMC pick up that will drop right in and are larger. do a search; at one time I posted the part number.

[babywag]

I was hoping for a caliper with a larger piston @ least...

Here's your post though (http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=023884)

If the pads are close it may be worth a shot looking @ the 3/4 ton calipers to see if the piston is larger?

More powerful brakes are needed on a waggy when installing larger tires!!
Try doing a panic stop...HUGE difference vs. little 'ol 30.5" tires!!

[Nick@lockitup]

Use mid 80s chevy or gm stuff. It'll be for the 10 bolt front end, not the dana 44. Caliper is slightly bigger and pad has more surface area. Bolts right up. Difference is probably minimal though, but it feels like my waggy stops a little faster

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Originally posted by babywag:
I was hoping for a caliper with a larger piston @ least...

Here's your post though (http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=023884)

If the pads are close it may be worth a shot looking @ the 3/4 ton calipers to see if the piston is larger?

More powerful brakes are needed on a waggy when installing larger tires!!
Try doing a panic stop...HUGE difference vs. little 'ol 30.5" tires!!FSJ Uses GM calipers, same as 1/2 tons and 3/4 ton. Caliper is as large as it gets for the axles you have. Hydroboost would be really your only upgrade along with a rear disc conversion

[DanHS]

With the popularity of 1/2 ton GM trucks, there must be aftermarket brake kits for the GMs that would bolt right up to FSJs.

Does this look right? (item number 884-A126-18)
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=227385&prmenbr=361

[ September 28, 2005, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: DanHS ]

[89grand]

I don't think I'd be willing to spend 7 or 8 hundred just to stop a little better. I think a rear disk conversion probably offers the most bang for the buck as far as real improvements are concerned.

I think the GM 3/4 ton larger pads sounds interesting, it should help a little and they probably don't cost any more than the Jeep pads.

[DanHS]

I just did a search to pull up a post from a few weeks ago and found a couple other posts. I think the best thing to do, without spending the money on upgraded rotors and calipers, is to get carbon metallic pads, rear disks, and use some high temp brake fluid. I suppose it might be a wise idea to get slotted rotors for towing or mountain highways.

On my GW the brakes are quite powerful enough so I'm just going to go with the carbon metallic pads and hi temp fluid. I suppose that by the time I upgrade to larger tires I'll get rear disks and maybe slotted front rotors.

On my Mustang I'm planning slotted rotors, carbon metallic pads, more powerful front calipers, rear disks from an sn95 chassis mustang, and the hi temp brake fluid, I've faded the brakes out in just a couple minutes of high speed driving.

[babywag]

Okay.....some of you are missing the goal of my post.

The brakes work VERY well w/ stock wheels/tires.
Put some large 33x12.5x15's on your truck and try to do a panic stop.
Put some 35x12.5x15's on your truck and try to do a panic stop.
You'll see what I'm talking about real fast!
The brakes are no longer adequate in my opinion.

I know the calipers are basically GM, so ones that bolt up w/ larger pistons should be around somewhere....?

I plan on a rear disc upgrade, money permitting.
Until then I would like to find some better calipers.

DanHS may be onto something w/ the aftermarket ones. I may have to call them....

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Originally posted by babywag:
Okay.....some of you are missing the goal of my post.

The brakes work VERY well w/ stock wheels/tires.
Put some large 33x12.5x15's on your truck and try to do a panic stop.
Put some 35x12.5x15's on your truck and try to do a panic stop.
You'll see what I'm talking about real fast!
The brakes are no longer adequate in my opinion.

I know the calipers are basically GM, so ones that bolt up w/ larger pistons should be around somewhere....?

I plan on a rear disc upgrade, money permitting.
Until then I would like to find some better calipers.

DanHS may be onto something w/ the aftermarket ones. I may have to call them....You can get Dual Piston or a larger caliper........................................... ................................................
But they won't bolt up to your axles. Like I mentioned couple posts up. You have the largest setup for the axle you are running. If you want to spend huge amounts of $$$$ as 89grand pointed out, then sure anything is possible.
Best advice is to drive accordingly, to road conditions and to the capabilities of your rig.

[Serious Johnson]

I hear ya'! Stock Wag brakes are almost up to a full-on stop from 80, as long as you don't try it again soon. I often tow in excess of 7,000 lb through the Rockies with mine, am running 33" tires, and would dearly love some decent brakes. Right now I have semi-metallic pads (Chebbies on the front) & shoes, braided metal lines (just because I needed longer ones for the lift), and an otherwise stock braking system in perfect form. I had an order in with Carbo-Tech ($140 for front pads -- don't even want to think about custom rear shoes), but it never panned-out.

What usually happens on a hard stop heavily loaded is that the fronts fade and the rears eventually lock -- not good if you're trying to maintain a line! A cockpit-adjustable proportioning valve could help as long as I'm willing to reach up and turn it at the point of front fade. Otherwise It'd be too heavily front-biased when the brakes are cool, and I'd understeer off a gravel downhill.

The rears are not at all highly stressed, so going to discs back there will not improve stopping from speed. It might make modulation a bit better, especially after a deep water crossing. Certainly there's a better front pad somewhere. Thing is, this stuff is a compromise. Greater heat resistance generally means scary cold performance or rotors wearing down quickly, or short pad life or noise, or excessive dusting -- usually all of the above. Slotted rotors might help a little bit, but I suspect that the problem here is one of relative mass. That is, the rotor is just too dang small for the weight of the rig, and so has insufficient thermal mass to deal with the heat generated. Multi-piston calipers basically even-out pressure across the pads. This gains you a tiny bit of extra force, but mainly just makes the pads last longer; an important thing on an enduro racer, but of limited cost/value elsewhere.

What we really need is more massive front rotors. Feel like going to 20" wheels to fix it?

S.J.

[ September 28, 2005, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Serious Johnson ]

[babywag]

Hell if I find bigger rotors and calipers that'll bolt up with little or no mods....
I'll gladly upgrade the wheels

[babywag]

Update just got a reply from a brake outfit...
A larger caliper DOES exist...
Looks like I'll be calling the local truck salvage yard to see if they have any

-----Original Message-----
From: brakewarehouse.com [mailto:info@brakewarehouse.com]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: Brakewarehouse.com Tech Question???

There is one caliper with a slighty larger bore used on 79 to 86 C20 heavy duty, it will bolt up but I do not know if it will rub on the rotor or hit anywhere else. Also the pad for that caliper is slighty larger also and you may have to check to see if that rubs also.

Good luck

_____________________________________________
Robert
www.brakewarehouse.com (http://www.brakewarehouse.com)

[ September 30, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: babywag ]

[Wgnmaster22]

There is one caliper with a slighty larger bore used on 79 to 86 C20 heavy duty, it will bolt up but I do not know if it will rub on the rotor or hit anywhere else. Also the pad for that caliper is slighty larger also and you may have to check to see if that rubs also.I, for one, will be VERY interested in the outcome of that trial fitment as I find that my Wagoneer doesn't stop anywhere near as well as it goes,.... smile.gif

Being in the Porsche business, I've gotten somewhat spoiled so I too, am looking for a bolt-on solution that will make stopping this 4600+ lb monster a more confidence-inspiring experience.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Yup so there is a larger caliper available, and may possibly fit. Still though I doubt the 7/32" larger bore is going to make a differance in noticeable braking power, maybe combined with the slightly larger pad you may not hit something ;)

[babywag]

I'll take anything I can get!
A larger piston = better brakes.
It will make a difference, no possible way it couldn't.

[Nick@lockitup]

Anything you can get? get 10 bolt 1/2 ton brakes. They ARE bigger than dana44 1/2 brakes. Also, d44 1/2 and 3/4 ton brakes are the same, only thing different is the lug pattern on the rotor. plus they are cheap, i think 14 bucks lifetime warranty for the calipers, about the same for the pads...direct bolt up

I work in a parts house, lemme know if i can help on anything.

[Serious Johnson]

Originally posted by babywag:
I'll take anything I can get!
A larger piston = better brakes.
It will make a difference, no possible way it couldn't.Larger piston is, I guess, a start. You'll need a larger master cylinder bore to keep pedal/pad pressures the same, but that may not be a problem as these silly rigs (like most with GM brakes, including the Corvettes I've driven) seem configured to apply full force with the slightest touch of a lady slipper. I still think it's mostly a matter of too little rotor mass.

}}}}

[babywag]

Nick@lockitup;

Okay, how about some part numbers for rotors/calipers/pads. Ones I can x-reference to a local outfit like AutoZone/Kragen/CarQuest/NAPA etc.

[SteelPonyCowboy]

I havent tried any mods to my FSJ brakes but I did put a dual diaphram booster, proportioning valve and master cylinder out of a 95 Wrangler 6 cyl (dont let the parts stores tell you its the same as the 4 cyl, it is NOT) in my 82 Scrambler CJ8. Made a 100% improvement over the stock set up with my 35" Swampers. Something to consider ?

[Gawdzilla.]

just to chime in....the larger pad from the 3/4 ton DOES make a difference- on 33s it stops like it oughta. I don't know about larger though...keep us updated on your progress.

[JeepinPete]

What is needed is a larger rotor. Larger brake pads will not make a difference in braking performance, just in brake pad life. Friction doesn't care about area, only the force applied.

A large piston caliper will increase the force on the pad, but it will also cause more travel in the brake pedal. If you upsize the master cylinder to compensate, you are right back where you started from. You are just moving more fluid.

More boost will improve stopping, so long as you don't get into brake fade, say from towing. So hydraboost will help cover up the problems. But when it comes right down to it, we need more leverage, whic means a large diameter rotor.

[GED]

saw that on ebay:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/74-91-JEEP-Cherokee-Wagoneer-J-MJ-SJ-DRILL-SLOT-ROTORS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33564QQitemZ8003 602907QQrdZ1" target="_blank">
http://i18.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/08/b3/d6_1.JPG?set_id=7clickme</a>

[Nick@lockitup]

Originally posted by babywag:
Nick@lockitup;

Okay, how about some part numbers for rotors/calipers/pads. Ones I can x-reference to a local outfit like AutoZone/Kragen/CarQuest/NAPA etc.Will provide some #s later tonite when i get back from work....

[Nick@lockitup]

AZ Part #s

Jeep Waggy, and chevy 1/2 and 3/4 Dana 44 stuff
mkd52s for the pads
c528 and c529 for the calipers

Chevy 10 bolt 3/4 stuff, mid 80s
mkd153 $16.99
c530 $14.99
c531 $12.99 all lifetime warranty

[bluesman2a]

I think you guys are making this WAY more complicated and expensive than it needs to be. We've now done 4 rear disc brake conversions and they are enough to lockup 35's with stock booster and MC.

Don't believe me, see the video here:
http://www.miltwebb.com/gallery/albums/album05/The_Beast.wmv

Chevy 1992 K1500 rotors (6 on 5.5): $28 Each at Advance (what we used)
1978 Jeep Cherokee Calipers: $15 each at Advance
Brake Brackets: $9 each at www.aa-mfg.com (http://www.aa-mfg.com) (part number AA-049-A)
Stainless braided brakeline (aee your local speed-shop): $5/foot (about 5 feet)
Brake line IF to AN adapters (speedshop): $5 each (2)
7/16 Banjo to AN adapter (speedshop): $8 each (2)
Speed bleeders (3/8's set of 2, Help aisle at O'Reilly's auto parts): $10
Caliper bolt/hardware kits: $12
Being able to lock up 4 35" tires at will: PRICELESS

Also another note: if you are running 15" wheels, you need to check for clearance on the back side of the caliper and be prepared to grind the BACK of the caliper some for clearance on the wheel.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Gawdzilla.:
just to chime in....the larger pad from the 3/4 ton DOES make a difference- on 33s it stops like it oughta. I don't know about larger though...keep us updated on your progress.Agreed, and the Carbon Metallic pads make an even bigger difference. I put the 0153-20 Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads on my rig today and I can just about get the thing to pull a stoppie.

0153-20 is the PF Carbon Metallic part number for an 86 GMC K2500 4x4 with the heavy duty brakes (JD8, or whatever). The pads are a direct swap, and I highly recommend them. They act a little different than conventional pads, but the performance difference is just night and day.

[Wgnmaster22]

They act a little different than conventional pads, but the performance difference is just night and day.Can you clarify what you mean by "act a little different"?

Cold response?

Grabby when hot?

Harder to modulate?

Non linear?

More info would greatly appreciated,... smile.gif

[ October 07, 2005, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Wgnmaster22 ]

[Spectre]

From dead cold, they're no different than a good set of semi-metallics. Once you get the first stop out of the way, they just get better and better. The hotter they get, the better they grab (which is how most good modern vehicles are now - makes sense since a lot of domestic models use these as OEM now in an effort to catch up and pass the rest of the world).

If you apply a fixed amount of pressure to the pedal, the pads gain more and more power as the vehicle slows down and the pads heat up. Clean and linear, easily controlled.

These things *love* stop and go traffic. Fade is non-existent. I put a set on my Z a couple of years ago and I shaved 10+' off my 60-0 distance. It does 60-0 in 98'. I don't know what the Wag does it in, but it seems like my stops also got a lot shorter.

[Wgnmaster22]

Thank you, Sir.

Thats quite helpful and I'll try a set of those on my '78 Waggie.

[babywag]

Originally posted by bluesman2a:
I think you guys are making this WAY more complicated and expensive than it needs to be.
We've now done 4 rear disc brake conversions and they are enough to lockup 35's with stock booster and MC.No offense, but locking up the brakes doesn't equal good stopping ability.
Sometimes locking up the brakes results in a lack/loss of control.
Locking the brakes also lengthens the stopping distance.

My goal is to increase control/stopping ability, and try to keep it cheap.

On another note, I installed the larger calipers, and new pads yesterday.
**HOLY SHEEIT!!** MAN WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!
For the $78 it cost to do it, definately worth it!!! Could be done a 'bit cheaper, but I splurged on the pricey pads.

[GED]

So which exact part number did you buy ?

Did you take any pics ?

Thanks,

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yea, come on, more info than that.

[MGrimm]

If I can find a straight road with little traffic then I would love to do a before and after test. Put up some cones, maintain 60, reachthe cones begin braking, measure distance to stopped vehicle. Repeat 4 more times. Make upgrades and retest. Then you have real proof. Hmmm, maybe a good article for FSJ magazine or JPs?

[babywag]

I used the part numbers posted by Nick@lockitup
and Spectre posted the brake pad part number.

Autozone part numbers....
Chevy 10 bolt 3/4 stuff, mid 80s
mkd153 $16.99
c530 $14.99
c531 $12.99

I splurged on the expensive carbon metallic pads
PN# 0153-20 $43.99 2 year warranty

Sorry no pics, wife had the camera.
It's a simple bolt-on upgrade.

[billyrb]

I just checked these part numbers at the local autozone, and the prices seem a little different......

Now the two calipers (c530/c531) are coming up as special order, and the cost is $30.99 each with a $29.00 core charge. Also, the Autozone website doesn't pull up those numbers anymore. Anybody else find the same thing? Nick@lockitup, got any advice?

[FSJeeper]

As stated before, put a hydroboost on. You won't believe how well your FSJ will stop with larger tires. No need to upgrade anything else.

[billyrb]

I found this list at Advance Auto Parts....but didn't see any Jd8 listings.....

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?parttype=5003&searchfor=Caliper&ptset=A

[bjtc_brian]

I am really, really interested in this also, but I can't find the C530 and C531 part numbers anywhere.

[Spectre]

Try O'Reilly Auto Parts - they carry the A1 Cardone Brand:

A1 Front Left Rebuilt Caliper
1 per car. 18-4123 Each $14.99 $20.00
OE METAL PISTON w/JB7, JD7 - w/3 5/32" PISTON - GM CODES ARE ON THE "SERVICE PARTS ID" STICKER LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY

A1 Front Right Rebuilt Caliper
1 per car. 18-4122 Each $14.99 $20.00
OE METAL PISTON w/JB7, JD7 - w/3 5/32" PISTON - GM CODES ARE ON THE "SERVICE PARTS ID" STICKER LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY

That should give you some part numbers for purchase or crossreference. I typo'd my earlier post - it's JD7, not JD8.

[ December 23, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Spectre ]

[bjtc_brian]

That hydroboost thing is expensive. I am looking for an inexpensive way like the rest of the people here.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Originally posted by bjtc_brian:
That hydroboost thing is expensive. I am looking for an inexpensive way like the rest of the people here.My Hydroboost swap cost about 50.00. Shop around junkyards, eBay.

[bjtc_brian]

What would I look for at the Junk Yard?

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I pulled mine from a 76 Cadillac Eldorado, The Jeep Master Cylinder bolts up to the Hydro Boost.

[billyrb]

Spectre, thanks for clearing that up. That was part of the confusion as I kept seeing the Jd6's and the Jd7's, but not Jd8's. I also found the same parts / prices at Advance. I'll end up buying those this weekend.

For the Hydroboost, it is also a great alternative. But, I'd rather go this route for now on this rig....six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[bjtc_brian]

Is it a bad idea to do both?

[bjtc_brian]

Has anyone else done this lately?

[billyrb]

I'm upgrading my 79 Chero with a single diaphragm booster to a later-model dual diaphragm booster & new master cylinder, as well as the 3/4 ton front calipers & performance friction pads. In addition, I'll be upgrading to ATE Super Blue brake fluid for much better performance and less brake fade. Later, in the new year, I'll be upgrading my rear brakes to a disc conversion with emergency brakes.

Also, for those that haven't seen them, you can buy Power Bleeders that hook up to your master cylinder, and have a small pressurized container (hand pump) that you fill with fluid.....then, you simply open each bleeder until the air is gone. It's perfect as it makes bleeding brakes a one-man show and takes all of 15 minutes. I got mine from Apex Performance (best prices).

[Stangerize]

I couldn't believe how much better mine stopped when I did the dual diphram booster swap. I went to "auto parts store" and ordered a booster and master cylinder for a J-20. It is a dual diphram compared to mine which was a single diaphram. More brake pressure = more better stopping.

[Stuka]

3/4 ton D44 brakes are larger than 1/2 tons. How much the bigger rotors help, I am not sure, as theya rent that much larger. If you want larger brakes, get bigger axles. If you are running 35's then its about time to step up to 3/4 ton axles anyways. Or go up to 1 tons, a D60 front has much better brakes than your D44. The ford D60 has a dual piston setup at that. Then go with big rotors in back, and you are good to go. You will need 16" wheels to clear the calipers. I think there is a 14" brake upgrade for the ford axles also, which requires a 17" wheel toc lear.

[babywag]

You're missing the point of my post....
The goal was for *cheap* way to improve the braking.
My goal was accomplished w/ VERY good results.

Yes, buying axles/wheels/tires/etc., it aint cheap anymore.
Hydroboost is also out there, and has been documented many times before.
This is the first time I've seen anything posted about this type of brake upgrade.

It works well, and it's cheap.
Anybody can do it, if they can change brake calipers/pads.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Originally posted by Stuka:
Or go up to 1 tons, a D60 front has much better brakes than your D44. The ford D60 has a dual piston setup at that. Then go with big rotors in back, and you are good to go.Yup Guess I am good to go! :D Dana 60 fronts in both my rigs, Discs on my 14 Bolt in the J10. Cherokee with the Dana 70 rear I hope to convert to discs, and.............Hydro-Boost on both.

[bjtc_brian]

BabyWag and BillyRb, could I get the parts and numbers that you changed out?

[ December 24, 2005, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: bjtc_brian ]

[billyrb]

for the calipers & pads? They are listed on page 2.....

[funwheeling]

Can someone do a write up for the technical library?
This sounds like a worth while upgrade...

[JeepBountyHunter]

I have a hydroboost unit, was gonna do that to the J10 I sold Janie, she'll probably notice that it's got a later Master Cylinder and booster, but that was as far as I got, reason I'm posting is I can't wait to hear the next part of babywags post here, as he's bought a rear disc conversion off me recently. Now I'm like sheeit, should've kept it! :D

[Clem]

All right, this is all good for you 1/2 ton guys... What about slotted 8 lug rotors for the J-20?

[DanHS]

I was just looking this up online for Autozone, the calipers are $19.99 each, and the carbon metallic pads are $48.99, so that's the prices here. Only thing is that they want an $18 core charge for each caliper, and the calipers are made by Fenco, whoever that is. That whole story may change once I go to the store, as things aren't always the same between what the website says, and what they have there. I don't want to pay $36 extra now though.

[Jim Webb]

So will the bigger chevy calipers fit the stock 15" wheel? Thanks.

Jim Webb

[Spectre]

The stock Chevy 1-ton calipers do fit the 15" wheel - but the larger rotors that you need to make the most of the larger caliper bores will not.

And, of course, none of the aftermarket larger upgrade rotor kits will fit under factory 15" wheels.

[Jim Webb]

Agreed, and the Carbon Metallic pads make an even bigger difference. I put the 0153-20 Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads on my rig today and I can just about get the thing to pull a stoppie. To clarify, if I keep the stock size rotors and upgrade the calipers and pads everything will work with the stock wheels? Regarding the quote above, you saw these results with what modifications? Pads only? Pads and calipers? Or pads, calipers, and rotors? Thanks.

Jim Webb

[Nick@lockitup]

with the larger 10 bolt stuff you wont have to upgrade the rotor. Only "modification" i had to do was the brakeline. You could most likely use the 10 bolt one, all i did was grind down the caliper....

[Iamthe12car]

So does this brake caliper and pad upgrade do anything for a truck that's already a 3/4 ton, like my 77 J20, or am I already there?

[Nick@lockitup]

Yes. all d44, be it 1/2 or 3/4 ton share the same calipers and pads....

10 bolt calipers and pads are slightly bigger, but made a big difference on my rig....

[ January 10, 2006, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Nick@lockitup ]

[bjtc_brian]

Okay, so I am confused. What are people doing? 3/4 ton calipers and 3/4 ton pads, but 1/2 ton rotors?

[HeresPaco]

Originally posted by bjtc_brian:
Okay, so I am confused. What are people doing? 3/4 ton calipers and 3/4 ton pads, but 1/2 ton rotors?.. uhhhh... yeah... I mean.. maybe..I think..wait, I'm going to read all the posts again for the 5th time.. I'll get back you ya when I think I understand exactly!

LMAO

[babywag]

Originally posted by Nick@lockitup:
Yes. all d44, be it 1/2 or 3/4 ton share the same calipers and pads....

10 bolt calipers and pads are slightly bigger, but made a big difference on my rig....I 2nd that!!! HUGE improvement in stopping power on mine.
Even the wife noticed, and she doesn't notice anything when it comes to the cars/trucks!

Originally posted by HeresPaco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjtc_brian:
Okay, so I am confused. What are people doing? 3/4 ton calipers and 3/4 ton pads, but 1/2 ton rotors?.. uhhhh... yeah... I mean.. maybe..I think..wait, I'm going to read all the posts again for the 5th time.. I'll get back you ya when I think I understand exactly!

LMAO</font>[/QUOTE]Pretty straight forward;
Install different calipers, and different pads.
Bleed your brakes.
You're done.

Part numbers listed on page 2 of the post.

[DanHS]

It's just stronger brake calipers (the piston is larger, but they bolt right up) and larger pads (the pads cover more area on the rotor). It's the JD7 brakes used on heavier GM trucks, like a K20 Suburban or pickup. You keep the stock rotors.

[Nick@lockitup]

Here are the part numbers again....

Chevy 10 bolt 3/4 stuff, mid 80s
mkd153 $16.99 --- pads
c530 $14.99 ---caliper
c531 $12.99 ---caliper

all lifetime warranty

Prices may be different....

[DanHS]

Over here both calipers are $17 each and have an $18 core each :eek:

[ January 11, 2006, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: DanHS ]

[Spectre]

AutoZone has stopped carrying the C530 and C531 in most areas due to a supplier change. The numbers from A1-Cardone, the original supplier (and who's still supplying O'Reilly and other parts chains) are 18-4122 and 18-4123.

[ January 11, 2006, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Spectre ]

[HeresPaco]

Great! Thanks for the clarification. I'm doing some shopping!

[Nick@lockitup]

use your waggy stuff as cores, they'll never know the difference....

[HeresPaco]

heh heh.. I already had figured on that one!

[JeepsAndGuns]

You guys are going through way too mutch trouble to get just slightly better brakes. all this parts swaping and buying. Heck I did nothing to my brakes except add hydroboost and this thing stops like you wouldnt believe. I do have the 3/4 ton brake pads, but the stock calipers. The booster is from a 85 K3500. It was a little work to get it on, but well worth the trouble. I probably have about $100 in my system. That includes the booster itself, new master cylinder, and new hoses to hook up the the ps pump. Did a couple little mods to bolt it up and have never looked back.

[Iamthe12car]

What do you mean way too much trouble? 2 Bigger reman calipers and a good set of pads was $60, and the swap, with bleeding (speed bleeders) took an hour. Man, I've been on here two days and so far my J20 now has a TFI swap and better brakes. Thanks guys!

[J10-401]

Can you stand on the brakes without the rear wheels locking up? Do you still have the stock proportioning valve?

[Iamthe12car]

The rest is still stock, haven't done rear brakes yet, but need to. I'll give 'er a good try after that, but it does feel like it stops quicker.

[babywag]

Originally posted by Spectre:
AutoZone has stopped carrying the C530 and C531 in most areas due to a supplier change. The numbers from A1-Cardone, the original supplier (and who's still supplying O'Reilly and other parts chains) are 18-4122 and 18-4123.Opposite around here, they don't stock the cardone, you have to order them.
They're more expensive too...
$29 core and $30.99 = ouch!!

SoCal AZ stores still stock the Fenco(s)
$18 core and $14.99 around here...

[Iamthe12car]

Another option for good carbon-metalic pads comes from Wagner's severe duty line, part #SX153. I ordered a set to compare to the Thermoquiets on it now, part MX153. In some places this may be a cheaper and easier to get option to Performance Friction...

[Iamthe12car]

And before I forget, I found a cheaper alternative for extended brake lines, Wagner part #'s are F104345 and F104347 front, and F118117. The fronts are from the same vintage Chevy truck as the calipers (I found under 85 1-ton 4x4), I'll see what the rear is from, I just went by fittings and longer length...hope it helps someone, I will try them when I do my lift and report back, hopefully with some pics...

[mudslider]

how much longer? b/c there was someone on here that was talking about longer brakelines than our stock ones by i think 5 inches or so. i dont remember who though.

[Iamthe12car]

Front's are about 4-5" longer, the end for the caliper is metal and about that long, I will check on the rear as soon as I either measure a new one (have to order in), or crawl under mine, but according to the catalog around 4-5" too.

[Jim Webb]

When using the GMC calipers with the stock rotors is it better to use Carbon Metallic or Ceramic brake pads? Also, if possible could you give a brief explanation as to why?

Jim Webb

[Iamthe12car]

Either offers the best mix of friction (resistance, grip, call it what you will, the word escapes me right now)and heat resistance/dissipation over a traditional semi-metallic pad. I would say carbon-metallic myself, from experience with them in race and street cars, but anyone try ceramic?

[360]

good question jio-401!! i found my rear brakes locked up before the front came close(pain in the a**!!) I changed the size of the rear wheel cylinders to compensate!if i can get the front brakes to work better then i'll go back to std r-wheel cylinders WIN WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Iamthe12car]

The rear line I looked up is 17", will foind out on a stock rear this weekend or Monday...

[DanHS]

If the rears lock up before the fronts then the proportioning vlave is not workng right. Mine is doing this and I'll post the solution once I figure it out. The bigger calipers should not affect the rear brakes, as the proportioning valve adjusts the pressure to the rear depending on the total pressure it recieves. I'm going to put the bigger calipers on soon, Autozone has Fenco brand here.

[The Anti-Chrysler]

I see alot of mention of core prices. Have any of you guys tried to just play dumb and return the smaller size original Jeep calipers? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm 100% sure I could return my original Jeep calipers in return for the core fee and wouldn't get bagged on it.

[Iamthe12car]

The only difference is the caliper piston and bore is smaller, and unless the guy has done this, he won't know. Physically they're the same otherwise. And for that matter, I don't know that the manufacturer will care. Trust me, I'm a parts guy. smile.gif

[Nick@lockitup]

Yeah, they'll never notice. If anything pay the core charge, then return the jeep calipers... Then they'll really never know unless they pulled one off the shelf and compared it....which they wont.

[tanggod]

Of the people that have done this mod, how many people have had to change their brake hoses? The calipers that I've got on my 88 look like this:
http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cardone/184208.jpg
and they go with brake hoses that look like this:
http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Raybestos/BH38159.jpg

The Frenco calipers (part # C530 & C531) and the Cardone calipers (part # 18-4123 & 18-4122) I've found at a Napa, Autozone, Advance Auto, and O'Reilly's all look like this, but without the pads included (this is part # 16-4123):
http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cardone/164123.jpg
BUT, RockAuto's website has this picture for the 18-4123:
http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cardone/184123.jpg
If I could find calipers that looked like the last picture, then I wouldn't have to change the brake hoses or grind down the ones I've got now. Brake hoses that match the calipers that every has are at least $20 each. So, has anyone gotten the calipers that look like the last one, or has everyone either had to grind down their brake hoses or buy new hoses? I'd like to find out before I drop anymore money on this.

[ January 29, 2006, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: tanggod ]

[tanggod]

I've been looking for parts for an 85 Chevy K20 3/4 4wd with JB7 brakes, fyi.

I know the second pic is for calipers that are the wrong part #, but the back of the calipers pictured match exactly the calipers that I bought. I don't know if RockAuto's website is wrong or if all 4 auto parts stores are wrong. The Frenco calipers (part # C530 & C531) that I bought from AutoZone have a bigger piston than the stock Jeep calipers, so they're the right part, but the brake hose's that are currently on the jeep don't fit.

Checking out RockAuto's website a little further shows that there are two different part #s for these calipers, 16-4122 and -4123 and 18-4122 and -4123. The 18s match our brake hoses, but the 16s don't. They both have the same size piston, 3 5/32". All the parts stores around here have the 16s, but they've got them in the 18s boxes. Has everyone else bought the 18s that fit?

[Iamthe12car]

The only difference between a 16- and an 18- should be one (!^) is loaded, ie. it has pads, and the other does not (18). That's A1's part numbering. I had no probs with mine,...

[tanggod]

Well, I've been to another Advance Auto and the pic of the piston side of the 16-4122 has the casting that matches our hose, but the 18 that the guy pulled off the shelf did not have the right casting, again. When I ask for the hoses to go along with the calipers, they always give me hoses that match the Jeep's hoses, but don't fit the calipers they just handed me. Everytime I ask the parts guy how I'm supposed to make the square fitting with the ears fit into the round hole they reply with the same dumb look that I've got.

In the end I think I'm just going to grind the casting off the back so that I can make the stock hose fit, unless someone out there has a better idea.

[Nick@lockitup]

All i did was grind mine down....

[Serious Johnson]

Originally posted by DanHS:
[QB]If the rears lock up before the fronts then the proportioning vlave is not workng right...QB]There's truth here, as far as Dan goes. Our style of proportioning valve, if I understand it, is basically a single-node pressure switch. At a certain line pressure, the prop valve spring allows a piston to move and cover an orifice, thus reducing pressure available to the rear brakes. This works fine in a one-short-hit hard braking situation. At least it's better than no prop valve at all, or one frozen by corrosion which would allow high pressure to the rear brakes in a high-G stop and send you 'round in loops with smoking back tars.

The rear brakes can also lock (more precisely, perhaps, to the point of this thread) when the fronts overheat and fade. That's the result of either (1): Rotors with insufficient thermal mass, (2): Pad compound biased toward cold grip that produce a lot of gas at high temperatures, or (3): Boiling brake fluid.

Different calipers won't do much for that, except possibly insulate the brake fluid from heat a bit better, or allow fitment of a larger pad with more even force distribution. Short of a more massive rotor, which generally means one of greater diameter (with attendant bigger wheels, etc.), about the only avenue to better fade resistance is pad compound, and that's always a compromise. A pad that bears-up under prolonged heat will be downright scary when it's cold. One that does pretty well in most situations might rapidly eat rotors, or squeal, or dust yer faincy wheels.

In my arrogant opinion, the problem with FSJ brakes is that the front rotors are just too small for the mass & speed potential of the vehicle. Other than going to larger wheels/rotors, we can only adjust our pad compromises. Anything else is just maintenance or misdirected modification.

S.J.

[bluesman2a]

Originally posted by tanggod:
In the end I think I'm just going to grind the casting off the back so that I can make the stock hose fit, unless someone out there has a better idea.Take yourself over to Fastlane race shop in Kennesaw. The banjo fittings they sell fit every casting I've ever seen.

Stainless braided brakeline (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $5/foot (about 5 feet)
Brake line IF to AN adapters (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $5 each (2)
7/16 Banjo to AN adapter (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $8 each (2)

If you want specifics, check out here:
http://www.southernjeeps.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10506&highlight=banjo

[babywag]

I already had stainless hoses installed from the lift, and they worked fine.
You'll get a better pedal w/ stainless anyways vs. 18 year old worn out stock hoses!

[tanggod]

Thank you Bluesman2a! Thats what I needed to know. I'll check them out this week.

I don't know what's going on with the different part #s and fittings/castings around here, but none of the calipers for sale match the hoses for sale. I did get to hear a funny angry rant from a really old parts guy about GM parts not matching up b/c they didn't use standard parts between platforms. That guy was plumb angry about it.

Thanks for the help!

[country boy]

I just got done reading all this. Now my head hurts. Has anyone used the bigger GM pads with the stock Jeep calipers ?

[Spectre]

That's what I'm doing. One-ton pads on the stock calipers - for now.

[GaWag]

Originally posted by bluesman2a:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tanggod:
In the end I think I'm just going to grind the casting off the back so that I can make the stock hose fit, unless someone out there has a better idea.Take yourself over to Fastlane race shop in Kennesaw. The banjo fittings they sell fit every casting I've ever seen.

Stainless braided brakeline (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $5/foot (about 5 feet)
Brake line IF to AN adapters (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $5 each (2)
7/16 Banjo to AN adapter (Fast Lane in Kennesaw): $8 each (2)

If you want specifics, check out here:
http://www.southernjeeps.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10506&highlight=banjo</font>[/QUOTE]B & J hydraulics does SS brake lines for 3 something I think :confused: . Been awhile. That's where I got all my hydraulic stuff.

[billyrb]

Nick, do you have pics of where you ground your calipers down?

[Nick@lockitup]

I don't, but will do tommorow.....

[billyrb]

thanks!

[JohnIL]

Ryan,
Do you know if the stainless brake lines from BJ's will fit the larger calipers without grinding or are the BJ's lines come with stock fittings? Thanks.

John

[billyrb]

the bj's lines come with stock fittings. So, the options seem to be that you'll need to grind the caliper, or run adapter fittings. Once I get some free time, I'll delve into this a bit more and see what can be done / what needs to be done, as I run our SS brakelines on my daily driver.

[babywag]

Originally posted by billyrb:
the bj's lines come with stock fittings. So, the options seem to be that you'll need to grind the caliper, or run adapter fittings. Once I get some free time, I'll delve into this a bit more and see what can be done / what needs to be done, as I run our SS brakelines on my daily driver.The stainless lines I got w/ my 6" BJ's lift did not have stock fittings???
They worked fine for me w/ the larger calipers.
Stock hose ends have ears on them...

[AMSting]

I posted this about a month ago.

This is intended to relate my experiences with the Chevy disc brake upgrade on my 80 Chief. I had been researching this upgrade from all the information presented on this site, and luckily had written and archived everything I would need to get going. I say luckily because I wasn’t planning on starting this any time soon as my brakes seemed to be working fine. That is until my left front caliper froze. It progressively got worse over two days, and when I smelled brakes after only going 5 miles I knew I had to fix it.

My first stop was Midas. I figured I would get the complete inspection before heading into this to make sure I wasn’t surprised by anything. Well, I was surprised by their estimate. Replacing both calipers and hoses, grease seals, pads, and turning rotors was $416. Wow.

Now, I used to work on my cars when I first started driving, but really haven’t had the time since I got married, kids, etc. I was really looking forward to trying this, but also hesitant since I didn’t want to get in over my head. The Midas estimate gave me the push I needed, especially when $210 of the estimate was labor.

The first thing I did was to get the parts. I went to Autozone and got calipers and pads for a 1985 Chevy K-20 Suburban with the JB-7/ JD-7 brake system. Parts numbers are C530/ C531 and MKS-153. You don’t need these exact parts numbers as long as you get them for the correct vehicle. I did get the carbon metallic pads, which were about twice the price of the regular pads. Based on comments here, and my future plans for larger tires, I thought I would go ahead and get the good pads now. I also ordered the hoses for the Chief, but those would take two days to come in. My total cost for parts was $122, vs. the Midas parts price of $216 with regular pads, not carbon metallic.

Then I got to taking things apart. The left front wheel had a little play up and down, so I thought I might need new bearings. The Midas guy said if they were overheated they should be replaced, so I wasn’t surprised. I was surprised when I found the lock nuts were only finger tight! I removed both of them without a wrench. All I can say is “Man, am I glad I found this!” The right side had no play and was tight. Caliper and hose removal was straightforward, as was removal of the rotors. I cleaned out the old grease and looked everything over. The bearings and races looked good with essentially no marks, so I thought I would reuse everything.

Of course, now I needed to get the rotors turned. I knew the left front was uneven because I could feel it pulsing during braking. I also knew they could be turned from the Midas inspection. Unfortunately, I did not know of a machine shop. I called one that had been recommended for engine work, but they didn’t do rotors. They did give me the name of someone else, who said it would take about an hour and cost $20. When I picked the rotors up, they looked beautiful. It’s a small automotive shop I never would have known about, but now I have a mechanic to replace the one I was using that just retired. Overall, this was a really good find.

Reassembling and mounting the rotors was straightforward. I used a hammer and 2x4 to insert the grease seal. I covered the seal with a rag to keep junk out. Make sure the 2x4 is centered on the hub so that you don’t accidentally drive one side of the seal in too far. If you do, you can carefully pry up the part that is in too far so that everything ends up flush with the hub rim. Not that I had to do this or anything.

My first issue arose when mounting the hoses to the calipers. The Jeep hose has a different attachment configuration than the caliper accepts. I did compare the Chevy hose, but although that would mount to the caliper, it would not mate to the brake line. No one here had mentioned any problems with this connection, but it really wasn’t a big deal. The Jeep hose has a brass block with ears. I had to widen the caliper opening slightly so the block would fit, and then grind out a couple indentations in the caliper mounting lip for the ears to nestle into. I used my Dremel, but a file would also work. I think this took about 15 minutes to get both calipers modified. Make sure you keep the plug in the hose mounting hole in the caliper to keep debris out.

Once the hose was mounted, I installed the pads. This was issue number two. The piston inner diameter of the new caliper is about ¼ inch larger than the original caliper. The spring clip to hold the inner pad in place wasn’t high enough to grab the piston securely. This was remedied by bending the clip straighter so it could reach the piston wall. I then bent the end over so that it was flush with the piston wall. If you just stretch the spring clip, the end that grabs the piston wall is angled too much and it does not have any contact area to hold the pad in place. When I finished, the inner pad was held in place as securely as the original pads. I even broke the end of one clip off making the final bend, but was able to straighten the clip a little more and bend the end so it worked well.

The new caliper mounts exactly as the original. Follow the directions for lubricating the pins and bolt everything up. The larger piston has a larger housing on the back of the caliper, but it does not interfere with turning at all. I did find issue number three, however. The front hose ear will hit the spindle at lock. Actually, only the right side hit, but the left was very close. For now I just filed everything down to provide some clearance. As a permanent fix, I plan to remove about half of the front ear. For everyone who has already performed this upgrade, I recommend checking your hose clearance at lock to be sure you don’t snap it off, especially from the added stress during wheeling.

After everything was connected, I encountered issue number four. Bleeding brakes is no fun. I had to bleed all four since the fluid leaked from the master cylinder during this process. If I do this again, I will cap the brake line at the hose connection with something like a vacuum port plug to keep the fluid in. It took some time, and I needed help figuring out what to do with the proportioning valve, but I got some help from the forum and got the system working.

So, does it make a difference? Yes it does. I have a firmer pedal that grabs earlier and more predictably. Stopping distance is shorter, and the brakes just feel better. Since the price for the calipers is the same, when you need new calipers I recommend this upgrade. The effort involved is minimal, and results are noticeable. It took about seven hours actual working time, but I think if I did it again it would only be about three. In addition, I saved about $274 doing it myself.

[Walt]

Nice writeup, thanks! It's nice to have everything summed up in one place.

[pb]

Just thought I would add that the brake material patch from the 2500 HD 0153-20 is actually smaller than the original pads on my 75. The brackets are larger, but the width (up & down) of the contact area is smaller. Length is the same on one and slightly larger on the other one once the pad wears away.

Top and bottom are the 0153-20 middle are stock
http://www.pburnham.com/DSCN1069.JPG

Red one is stock, black is 0153-20
http://www.pburnham.com/DSCN1072.JPG

http://www.pburnham.com/DSCN1076.JPG

[ March 29, 2006, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: pb ]

[Nick@lockitup]

billy, sorry i didnt get the pictures, but i basically ground the "shroud" from around the banjo bolt fitting down flush....

[PlumCrazyChris]

This has been really informative, thanks alot guys. I plan on doing this upgrade to my 83 Cherokee soon.

If anyone has any more observations or issues with this brake swap, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,

[TheJunkMan2005]

They make 2 different size calipers for the corp 10bolt chevy. They make the light duty and heavy duty. I think it's the JB7 set up that is heavier duty, and uses different brake pads. Same size rotors too. The JB6 brake set up is smaller, and not as strong..

Len

P.S. The JB7 is hydroboost, which came in diesels and 1 ton chevy/gmc trucks.
The JB6 was the standard vac. boost brakes.

[Retro93]

As stated before, put a hydroboost on. You won't believe how well your FSJ will stop with larger tires. No need to upgrade anything else.

Yup...all you need to do. The hydroboost will cure all of your poor braking problems.

[CheapJeep]

OK, did most of this upgrade this weekend, BUT I HAD SOME PROBLEMS that you might want to be aware of....

This is on a 78 Wag ltd

1- Pep boys and autozone DO NOT have MKS-153, but they do have MKD-153, they appear to be correct and when cross referencing the JB7 brakes, they are right.

2- Pep boys computer sucks, it does not list the K20 Burb, so they couldn't cross check, but autozone does, so I checked to be sure.

3-Calipers had teh funky mount, so I ground them down. Had I not been tired I would have preferred to do a more careful grind so that at least one ear of the mounting block rode against something so that the bolt could be tightened better, but there is not much when you compare them side by side.

4-OLDER JEEPS HAVE A DIFFERENT BRAKE LINE FITTING, or at least mine did, The bolt into the caliper (banjo bolt?) was bigger on my stock? calipers. SO, I used 1986 front brake hoses (I had them in stock :)
THese bolt right up.

Of course, I broke a brake line in the process, so I can't tell you how they drive, but hopefully soon.
Oh, and of course I tried to replare the broken line and it leaks, and the tubing flare tool broke and today its raining:(

This all started because my brakes started squeeking (looked through inspection holes and it looked like there was meat on the pads, but when removed they were pretty worn) and the brakes felt twitchy back and forth when brakes were applied. I hope this helps!
Scott

[k7mto]

Bringing this thread back from the dead...

I read the entire thread and know which parts I need, but have another issue that wasn't previously brought up...

I'm swapping a late 70's Waggy 44 into my CJ. I'm using my CJ D30 outers (rotor/hub) to keep my 5x5.5" lug pattern. The CJ spindle bolts up OK. I thought I'd use the Waggy backing plate/caliper mount with the Waggy calipers being they are larger, but the Waggy rotor is about 1/4" thicker than the D30 rotor, so I'm curious of the caliper piston will be able to apply proper pressure to the rotor during braking.

The CJ master cylinder has a larger reservoir for the front brakes already and I'm hoping I can keep the CJ proportioning valve (rear is still drums).

If the CJ rotor is too thin, I'll likely have to go the Ford 5x5.5 rotor route. TIA

[k7mto]

If the CJ rotor is too thin, I'll likely have to go the Ford 5x5.5 rotor route.
I found some info (haven't confirmed yet) that the 77/78 CJ D30 rotor was
1 1/8" thick versus my 79 rotor which is about 7/8" thick. I plan on checking some parts stores tomorrow to confirm. If so, one of those will fit the bill perfectly.

Update: turns out the 77/78 CJ rotors which are 1 1/8" think are 6 lug. The 5 lug are still 7/8" like the rest. I ended up using Ford rotors too. Now I'm working on finding compatible hoses that also have enough length for my axle droop (SOA CJ).

[caionneach]

Below, Nick states the part nos for pad & calipers, but does anyone know about larger rotors from the 3/4 ton GM pickups? Someone else in this thread used 1992 K1500 rotors in what appears to be, though is not stated explicitly, a rear disc brake conversion on an AMC 20 rear axle for FSJ's.

Kenneth

AZ Part #s

Jeep Waggy, and chevy 1/2 and 3/4 Dana 44 stuff
mkd52s for the pads
c528 and c529 for the calipers

Chevy 10 bolt 3/4 stuff, mid 80s
mkd153 $16.99
c530 $14.99
c531 $12.99 all lifetime warranty

[caionneach]

Are rotors upgraded too, or do people just use stock AMC front disc rotors when using the pads and calipers from the mid 80s GM trucks?

Below, Nick states the part nos for pad & calipers, but does anyone know about larger rotors from the 3/4 ton GM pickups? Someone else in this thread used 1992 K1500 rotors in what appears to be, though is not stated explicitly, a rear disc brake conversion on an AMC 20 rear axle for FSJ's.

Kenneth

[crazydog]

Are rotors upgraded too, or do people just use stock AMC front disc rotors when using the pads and calipers from the mid 80s GM trucks?

I used AMC part number for rotors, the larger JD7 Calipers, and EBC pads for a 1985 Chevrolet K2500.

[billyrb]

Ken, stock rotors. The combination of the stock rotors with the larger caliper piston and the performance pads are phenomenal.

[caionneach]

Thanks for clarifying that guys.

I see Autozone has a set of drilled and slotted rotors for $246.00 :eek:

Kenneth

[crazydog]

Thanks for clarifying that guys.

I see Autozone has a set of drilled and slotted rotors for $246.00 :eek:

Kenneth

I wouldn't bother with them. Depending on who you believe, the drilled rotors are prone to cracking.