Verify Blown Engine

[Antelope]

My Jeep was towed to a garage after I blew a heater hose. The mechanic advised me that he thought I needed to replace the engine. How exactly do you confirm this??

[64Trvlr]

First, what did the mechanic tell you? Why does he thinks the engine is blown? What else did it do other than blowing the heater hose? How long have you known this mechanic? Did you get a second opinion? Is there water in the oil? Is there oil in the radiator? Does the engine have good compression (all cyls within 10 % of each other )? Answer these questions and then go from here.
:cool:

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: 64Trvlr ]

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I am wondering, how did it run prior to the blown heater hose? How far did you drive it after the hose blew? Did you shut it off or did it quit? If you could fill in these as well as what 64Trvlr has asked I think we could come to a conclusion. ;)

[Narnian]

If the engine froze after running in an overheated condition, there are a few tricks you can try before replacing or rebuilding the motor. But we really need more details on what happened and what the mechanic diagnosed as the problem.

[Ol'Cowboy]

It sounds like the old mechanic trick telling people that the engine has blown a head gasket or hole in the piston and built up pressure to the point of blowing hoses. Do a compression check.

[Antelope]

First of all thanks for the replies. To answer your questions:
1) There isn't water in the oil
2) I haven't checked if there is oil in the coolant
3) I haven't done a compression check yet
4) I'm pretty sure that I shut it off and that it didn't quite, but it happened so quick and the details are a bit foggy
5) Prior to this it ran good, there was a medium pitched rattling nose that I would hear coming from bottom rear of the engine when I would gun it after coming out of a "high speed coast" that I ignored and told myself it was broken speedometer cable rattling around
6) My "mechanic" told me that he didn't do **** other then turn the key and "after doing this for about a hundred years it sounds like the engine needs replaced",
7) I don't know what else it did other then blow the heater hose
8) I've known the mechanic for a bout 5 minutes he was reccomended by the previous owner
9) I pulled over immediately after hearing the pop and feeling the steam
10) The engine now just turns over like there's no gas or spark, I've confirmed I have spark at least at the distributor, it makes a higher pitch noise now when turning over, the mechanic said that he thought it turnrd over ral easy like there is no compression, I didn't notice that though.

I haven't taken it to another mechanic because I thought I'd just tow it home with my back-up '84 F250 and let somebody work on it that I usually trust ME!!!

Please help guys, I really appreciate it.

[jeepbob]

Was there a bang about the time the hose blew? If it is cranking over faster than you could have lost the timing chain (jumped time) or you could have thrown a rod or 2.

[aztommot]

Was the knocking noise progressively louder with time or was it the same volume:just trying to see if maybe it was indeed a rod coming unglued. If you can crank it than you should be able to get enough fuel to the carb to have it primed you could take the air cleaner of and smell for gas after giving it a good cranking and a coulpe full throttle pumps on the gas to engage the fuel accelerator pumps and smell the opening of the carb for fresh gas fumes at that point if you know you got fuel and you know you got spark start thinking timing chain or rod. To check for the timing chain pop the top of the distributor cap and have somebody crank it over if the the rotors doesn't spin or spins irradically then you know its the timing chain. If it was a rod there should be metal shavings in your oil and that can be checked on the dipstick hope this helps my .03 :confused:

[Crazy_Jeepman]

From the bits and pieces I am hearing about your plight. I would go with the engine being in need of major repair. The two big reasons I come to this conclusion is because the fact prior to it quitting it had a rattle possibly a rod. Next is the fact that it turns over real easy like no compression, I would think the timing chain at the very least is gone, and very likely the cam, cam bearings and lifters should be replaced. Without really hearing it or knowing what the compression test says it is hard to tell for sure. How many miles on the motor, what was the oil pressure like when this happened. With what you have said I think another motor is the answer. The reason I say this is because you are not a mechanic and will most likely getting this repair done at a shop. Repairing the motor you have in the rig now would cost more than just finding a good used one or a rebuilt from a parts-house and having it installed or tackle that yourself, with the help from the members on this forum and tools I think you could put an engine in easier than repairing the one you have. Then you would have a good or new engine instead of one that has problems and most likely over 100,000 miles. Good Luck ;)

[64Trvlr]

I'll go wth the majority. Check compression, check for gas at carb, and check to see if the rotor moves smoothly. Do you have a mechanic or a friend who's opinion you trust? Have them give you a second opinion. Then it looks like time to spend some money.
:cool:

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: 64Trvlr ]

[Narnian]

I'm with the majority too. My earlier comments about tricks for a frozen engine obviously do not apply. But you should try the compression test, and definately try aztommot's test for the timing chain. I'm more inclined to think the chain is gone. If your chain was slipped you could have had a valve timing problem. If that was the case the chain could have gone completely south or your motor really did get destroyed. If you have another vehicle to drive and you are not in a rush then go through all the standard tests, and don't be afraid to open the engine up and verify your hunches. If the engine really does need a rebuild you have lost nothing but a little time. You might even find that it is a problem you can repair yourself down in the motors nether regions. Run through the initial diagnostic steps and report back to the board. A year ago I was afraid to do more than the simplest auto work. Then Ralph came over. Now there is nothing I am afraid to tackle. Just remember to lable parts when you remove them.

[Antelope]

Again guys thanks for the help!! And I apologize for spoonfeeding the information.
1) The next morning on the side of the road I popped the distributor cap and the rotor seems to be turning like I would expect a rotor to.
2) I have taken the air cleaner off and given it a few good shoots of ether, didn't seem to change the situation.
3) Jeepbob- it seems like there was a bang but at the time I associated it with a bursting hose, would the hose make much Rukus?
4) aztmmot- the knocking never really seemed to change over time. Based on your diagnosis there should be shavings in the pan at this point, right, the dipstick looks normal.
5) Crazy_Jeepman-I'm definitely not a mechanic but I'm never going to become one any younger so bear with me, if it is something major and the engine needs replaced it will be yours truly with help from the Forum, thanks. FYI The engine had around 170K on it.
6) 64Trvlr- It sounds like the only thing left to do is a compression check for now, thanks!
7) Narnian - Where would you start by tearing into to check the engine first? Up high or down low?

Thanks again, sorry this is such an elementary topic for you guys.

[Narnian]

The only thing you have down low is the crank shaft. If you had spun a bearing chances are the motor would still run, but would make a ruckus. I wouldn't start at the very bottom.
If the rotor was turning, chances are your timing chain is not the problem. I'd try the compression check next - check for variance between all cylinders as 64 said early on.

This still doesn't add up though. I don't understand the cause and relationship of the heater hose blowing. I wonder if Scotty has any ideas on this one. Scotty, have you read this post?

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Narnian ]

[aztommot]

Yes that is correct there would be metal shavings in the oil on the dipstick visible in any good light.
IMO you might as well go ahead and replace the cap and rotor(cheap enough) and see if that works and besides if it does work great and if that is not the problem replacing those every 50k is a good idea unless you already have done so.
Also the Coil maybe failing under the conditions within the cylinder(higher resistance) and not outside the cylinder like when verifying spark. Old plugs/wires can add resistance to the ignition circuit making it hard to spark and therefore combustion to occur. What color(the ceramic collar around the electrode) are the plugs. If they are any color other than a creme white I'd replace them especially if there is any fouling material on them. Also because there was a bang, was it a bang like a backfire or a bang like metal to metal contact kinda bang? I would assume since the hose bursted too that it more or less sounded like a back fire. I am going to lean more towards the cam gear of the timing set having failed. The actual teeth on those gears are a high density plastic and they deteriorate over time. Also although you can see the rotor turning properly the chain may have spun an caught somewere else on the gear to give you the impression that it is o.k. and actually it isn't plus since you said the engine is turning over easier it would sound like the(cam2crank) timing is off and the cylinders are not compressing the charge due to the valves opening and closing at the wrong time. If you can determine this for sure then I would have to agree with Crazy Jeepman on getting another atleast longblock and go from there. Unfortunately to get to the timing chain all the ancillary items have to be removed along with the timing cover. just my .03 :confused:

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Check this real quick and easy way to see if your chain went. Remove #1 spark plug. Use a socket and long handled rachet or breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt (center of the bottom pulley of your engine) with rachet or breaker bar turn engine over so as the #1 piston is at the top. I also line up the timing mark on the harmonic balancer to O on the timming cover place a long screwdriver (6" or so) in the spark plug hole to see if the piston is at TDC or BDC screwdriver should only go a little ways down at TDC if your screwdriver goes all the way down then you need to turn the motor over one more time align the timming mark again to 0,. This is where you hold your breath follow the now disconected spark plug wire for the #1 cylinder to the cap point and hold your finger to that position, lift the cap off, HEY I SAD HOLD YOUR FINGER THERE!! (that was for in case you moved your finger) When you lift the cap off the rotor should be pointing to your finger if it is not then it is your timming chain. At a 170,000 miles this is very likely. There can be other problems though that would have to be considered. I have come to the conclusion the engine was overheated and the old heater hose blew, I suspect the engine was hot and the near wore out timing gears just could not take the heat and let the chain jump. I have seen timming sets go and turn the rotor normaly to watch so this test is the sure fire way to know if your chain has jumped or not. Antelope By the time you get your Jeep running and with the help of the many experianced people on this forum you will be a great mechanic. Keep asking questions! Good Luck ;)

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Crazy_Jeepman ]

[Antelope]

Thanks for all the help!

I was talking to a couple guys last nite and one of them swore up and down that it sounded like the head gasket to him. Yet this has never even been questioned by anyone on the forum. I don't have much respect for the guy I was talking to but I thought I'd throw it out there?

I'll I can say is it seems like it always had prior to this other then the noise it groans when it's trying to start is a little higher pitched?????

It sounds like I have something to do this weekend?
Thanks Gentlemen. I'll keep reading.

[jeepgods]

even if one head/ headgasket was bad it would run on the other four cylinders

[64Trvlr]

The reason I didn't mention headgaskets was because when you do the compression test it will show up. You need to do a basic diagnosis of the engine then you can start to figure out what's wrong.
:cool:

[Johnwog]

Sometime a bleed down compresion tester can help to find if you have a hole in a piston, bad valves or if your ring are broken and ,or worn out.Check it out.

[Antelope]

Thanks, thats what I'll be purchasing this weekend. How much $$???

[ibnfe]

Higher pitched noise while turning over... I'm guessing this means it is turning over faster due to lack of compression. I pretty much agree with what everyone has already posted. I can't really add anymore until we know the results of the timing check and compression check. Keep us posted and I'm sure we can get you to a solution...

[andy d]

for whats gonna be prolly a 1time use why dontcha rent the tester?pull all 8 plugs be fore use. good luck

[Antelope]

Yaaaoooo Hooooo!!!!!! I'm 95% complete with my winter project. I was actually cruising it this weekend it felt great to be back behind the wheel again!! Thanks for all your help guys, I don't know what I would have done w/o this forum. Would I do it again, yes, but only under different conditions, I would only do it in a well lite garage as opposed to outdoors in N. CA during rainy season. I learned so much basic knowledge about how my Jeep works. Thanks again.

[Bob Barry]

Great to hear it! Now you're a real-life expert on serious FSJ repair in less-than-ideal conditions.

So what ended up being the problem with the engine? Was it able to be rebuilt, or did you have to find another?