Regearing Q

[85woody]

How hard is it to put new ring and pinion in my front dana 44? Any problems or tips would be greatly appreciated.

[Dirtball]

Best left to experts... you need a good bit of very specialized equipment. Look here for some idea of what I'm talking about...

http://www.ringpinion.com/HowTo.aspx
http://www.fourwheeler.com/howto/29778/index.html
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/differentials.htm

I have an additional article saved at home on how to do this, and it is intimidating as hell...

[matt thompson]

It takes a lot of knowleadge, experience, special tools...if your not doing gear changes regularly it's money well spent to take to a professional.

[Menace]

It takes a lot of knowleadge, experience, special tools...if your not doing gear changes regularly it's money well spent to take to a professional.


Well stated!
:cool:

[Desert Beast]

its easy.















if you know how to do it and have the correct tools. can be time consuming, unless you get it right the first time. (which usually doesnt happen).

if youve never set up gears, i would take it somewhere. unless its an off road only. then try it. its the only way that youll learn.

[85woody]

It's gonna be on the road alot, so how much does it usually cost to have someone put in new gears?

[Mud Buzzard]

It's not magic. Git-r-done. Never lost a gear set and I have no special tools. Just air tools. I buy Yukon Gears though.. They are perfect out of the box.

[BRUTUS]

It's gonna be on the road alot, so how much does it usually cost to have someone put in new gears?

of course local prices will vary... definately get a few quotes going. Also each axle is different... some easier than others.

FWIW, it cost me $200 to get a set of 4.56's INSTALLED through a mechanic friend of mine. That is not including the master rebuild kit or the gears.

[J10Mike]

It's not rocket science. But, it can be frustrating. Having the right tools makes it easier. My rear D60 went in relatively easy after only two attempts.
The front D44 took many attempts over the course of two weeks. Of course, I didn't work on it every day or evening. When I was about ready to give up, I took a day or two away from it. But, it did eventually go in.
After that, I promised myself that I would never do it again. Now, I'm rebuilding a pair of D60s. They already have the 4.10s I wanted. But, I need to install my Detroit Locker...Which means reseting the rear ring and pinion. I'm leaving the front D60 open.

[Mud Buzzard]

It's not rocket science. But, it can be frustrating. Having the right tools makes it easier. My rear D60 went in relatively easy after only two attempts.
The front D44 took many attempts over the course of two weeks. Of course, I didn't work on it every day or evening. When I was about ready to give up, I took a day or two away from it. But, it did eventually go in.
After that, I promised myself that I would never do it again. Now, I'm rebuilding a pair of D60s. They already have the 4.10s I wanted. But, I need to install my Detroit Locker...Which means reseting the rear ring and pinion. I'm leaving the front D60 open. What gets me is so many people tell others to spend $800 or more in some cases (in my opinion, $200 is a fortune for gear install). That's more than the **** gears and master kits cost. You can buy a complete D60 front in perfect condition for $800 and never touch the gears. Just doesn't make any sense to me. I would rather blow up ring gears than pay someone else to blow them up for me. A local shop owner told me has been doing gears for 15 years and 40-60% depending on the volume of gears he does come back within 6 months because people can't even change their own fluid and because he just slaps em in. All of these shops are basically just slapping them em in checking the pattern once. They don't even test drive them most of the time. I say it's a good time to learn something if you have $800 burning a hole in your pocket......

[del]

Gears are something I haven't done ( yet ), but may in the future. If you have a DD that HAS to be reliable and can't be down, May be better to go to a shop. BUT, I'd rather try it myself on my trail or second vehicle. You may fry a set of gears, or maybe not. Like Mud Buzzard says, it's not magic, and can be done with research and patience. MB also brings up a good point. Try to find an axle that has what you want gear wise. Also you can try to find a fellow jeep member locally to help you that has done it. Heck, that could be you if you do enough. In the end it all comes down to what you're comfortable with. If you do go to a shop, look for one that does jeeps, and if he does a good job, pass on the word...Del

[shadowjeep]

here is a link for your reading pleasure. i have been reading this one a few times. i think i am going to try to set the gears in my d61 this spring.:D

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Gear_Setup/

[Casey]

What gets me is so many people tell others to spend $800 or more in some cases (in my opinion, $200 is a fortune for gear install). That's more than the **** gears and master kits cost.$800 I don't think so. Most reputable shops will do it for around $200 if you supply the parts.

You can buy a complete D60 front in perfect condition for $800 and never touch the gears. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
What if the axle you buy has 3.73s and you're running 4.88s? Throw in a case change and you're looking at a full regear with bearings and set up. This is where having the correct tools comes into play.


I would rather blow up ring gears than pay someone else to blow them up for me. A local shop owner told me has been doing gears for 15 years and 40-60% depending on the volume of gears he does come back within 6 months because people can't even change their own fluid and because he just slaps em in. All of these shops are basically just slapping them em in checking the pattern once. They don't even test drive them most of the time. I say it's a good time to learn something if you have $800 burning a hole in your pocket......
:rolleyes: I wouldn't spend a dime in his shop.



I've rebuilt outdrives and lower units in boats, set up gears in axles etc...

I still have occasion to pay someone else to set up axle gears for me. Chris Durham Motorsports (shameless plug) just did my 60s for me for $200 an end. I worked those days and made $300 each day, plus my axle got finished. Well worth it to me.

The best advice thus far...


its easy.















if you know how to do it and have the correct tools. can be time consuming, unless you get it right the first time. (which usually doesnt happen).

if youve never set up gears, i would take it somewhere. unless its an off road only. then try it. its the only way that youll learn.

[Mud Buzzard]

Apparently you misunderstood me. I've never spent a dime on axle work in my life. If the **** doesn't fit, I'll make it fit or weld the **** shafts together. ;) $800 or so is common. Look around and see how many people pay that or more for gear/locker installs with master kits. LOL! Suckers are born everyday. It's like people who pay other people to weld and/or bend tube for them....

[Casey]

Apparently you misunderstood me. I've never spent a dime on axle work in my life. If the **** doesn't fit, I'll make it fit or weld the **** shafts together. ;) $800 or so is common. Look around and see how many people pay that or more for gear/locker installs with master kits. LOL! Suckers are born everyday. It's like people who pay other people to weld and/or bend tube for them....
I understood you just fine.You make a poor arguement.
Some folks pay a dentist instead of pulling a tooth at home. That ain't so hard as installing gears, when compared to other aspects of dentistry and auto repair. I suppose you have a home dentistry kit to compliment your gear installation and fab tools.
You've called 80% of the folks on this board, suckers.

Nice.

As for the $800. Your price include all parts and install kits? Including the carrier or locker.

I got some prices from Randy's...

Parts only

A Detroit locker for a D44 is $543.
A bare case for 4.56 gears is $134, w/spiders (of course you could reuse yours if not damaged) add another $83.
Add the $176 for gears, $100 for the master kits...

Parts to regear a D44 w/30 splines with an open diff would cost $410-$493.

With a Detroit locker, $819. These prices do not include shipping.

Lets not forget the very basic tools to pull it off. You're looking at another $100 at the very least. I paid at least half that much for my dial indicator and base. More for my torque wrench.

Again, I think that $200 is more than fair to install everything. Where's the confusion?

[FSJ Guy]

It's a matter of perspective.

Some people realize that their time is worth money, and therefore it's easier (and cheaper!) to PAY someone to do something correctly that would otherwise take them all day to do and still not know if it was done right.

If I need it done immediately or if I think I'll NEVER use that $xxx.95 tool EVER again, I pay someone to do it for me. It gets done, I don't get dirty and I know it's done right. While that work is being done, if I'm out earning money, I'm actually ahead of the game.

[Mud Buzzard]

No argument, just stating it the way I see it and based on my experiences. Part of the problem with people today is they can't do a **** thing themselves and need someone else to wipe their *** for them.... ;)

[Golden Goose]

well, i'm perfectly capable of setting up gears, i've got all the tools and i've done a a few times before. BUT, for $200 or so i'm just as inclined to have someone else do it... it can be tedious and time consuming to measure, install, check preload, adjust backlash, inspect the pattern etc... the time and frustration it would cost me makes paying to have it done an attractive alternative, and as many have said, while the gears are being done i can either go to work, or pick up a side job to pay for the cost.

that being said, i do think that it's something worth trying once in your life, and if you plan to do a lot of regearing maybe then you should invest in tools. If i have a catastrophic axle failure the night before i have a big trip planned and all i have is a bare set of gears then in that case i'd be really glad to know how to install them...

And as far as people not knowing how to wipe their own @$$, that's why capitalism works... following your argument, if everyone could do everything for themselves no one would have a job because no one should pay to have work done??? And i'd pay to have my @$$ wiped, so i wouldn't have to put down my jeep magazine to do so myself... :D

[Mud Buzzard]

Meanwhile, intelligent people who can actually understand that a penny save is a penny earned are keeping their pennies... ;) :D

[Golden Goose]

thing is, a penny saved is only a penny saved. I don't do gears every day, so i'm a little slow, it prolly takes me a good 7 or 8 hours to do it and be sure that it's dead on (yes, i work slow when it's my own project), and i could easily earn more than what it cost by spending that time at work, now figure that he's never done it before, so it will prolly take longer, plus you need a dial indicator (at least $50 for a decent one), a torque wrench (200 or so) various hand tools that you may already have, doubtful that everyone has the right pinion nut socket kicking around, or a yoke holding tool (you could use big slip-joint pliers, more $$). what about honed out setup bearings? and a bearing puller, those can be expensive, the one they love over on pirate is a couple hundred...

i'm not trying to discourage the guy, but it's better to be well-informed before getting in over your head. i work as a mechanic, and 9 times out of ten when we finish a job that a well-intentioned but under-prepared do-it-yourselfer started it takes us longer to salvage their mess and do it right than it would take for us to do it right to begin with. and a shop's time ain't cheap, here in ct it's between 65-90 an hour...:eek:

[Dmntxn77]

Meanwhile, intelligent people who can actually understand that a penny save is a penny earned are keeping their pennies... ;) :D

So what you are saying is that you agree with Casey now??

$I still have occasion to pay someone else to set up axle gears for me. Chris Durham Motorsports (shameless plug) just did my 60s for me for $200 an end. I worked those days and made $300 each day, plus my axle got finished. Well worth it to me.

Looks like he is pretty intelligent to me.. Not only did he get his gears installed by a professional, as oppose to:


If the **** doesn't fit, I'll make it fit or weld the **** shafts together.

BUT, in the meantime, he made a extra $100 a day..



Personally, I do the same math all the time.. I am very capable of doing anything that I put my mind to, but sometimes, whats the point?

I can make over a grand with 2 days overtime, so my time DOES have value.. I wont hesitate to factor that in before I start a project..

[Mud Buzzard]

Blah blah blah... I don't give a ****. Do it yourself and save the money while learning something that will save you a lot more in the future.

[Mud Buzzard]

I can make over a grand with 2 days overtime, so my time DOES have value.. I wont hesitate to factor that in before I start a project.. Everyone's time has value--you can't get a refund on time. Nor can you really put a price on a hands-on education. It doesn't take two days to do gears, lockers, shafts, and master install kits. I can do those in two hours or less, front and rear. I've done a 14 bolt FF in 30 minutes with just common air tools. Just my opinion.

[Dmntxn77]

Blah blah blah... I don't give a ****. Do it yourself and save the money while learning something that will save you a lot more in the future.



You're funny...

I am not sure if you are even reading the posts...

Several of us have made it VERY clear that we would NOT be saving any money because of either the cost of tools, or the ablilty to make more in a day by NOT doing it ourselves..

But hey, by all means, stick to your guns.. :rolleyes2:

[Dmntxn77]

Everyone's time has value--you can't get a refund on time. Nor can you really put a price on a hands-on education. It doesn't take two days to do gears, lockers, shafts, and master install kits. I can do those in two hours or less, front and rear. I've done a 14 bolt FF in 30 minutes with just common air tools. Just my opinion.


First, yeah right...


Second, since I have never done it, it would probably take me two days.. I would probably spend half a day just gathering up the right tools and equipment...

[Mud Buzzard]

Second, since I have never done it, it would probably take me two days.. I would probably spend half a day just gathering up the right tools and equipment... The bigger housings and full float rears (fronts take longer because of u-joints in the stub shafts and hub assemblies) are a lot easier than say a--especially an 8.25 (i put in a no-slip and couldn't fit my fingers into the carrier)--cant do it with the carrier out and 4.56 gears barely fit in the 8 1/4--had to notch the cover too and the cover bolts on the bottom had to be re-tapped. I don't doubt you could do gears with little trouble and probably faster than I too.. You don't need all of that **** to do them. People make such a big fuss over it. They are all shop owners hoping to make a buck off some poor unsuspecting hobbyist. ;)

[PlasticBoob]

(in my opinion, $200 is a fortune for gear install) For some of us, though, $200 or even $800 is a drop in the bucket for the time saved.

I'm of the opinion that it's nice to do the work and learn yourself. Sure, I could go pay someone to fix up my Jeep for me and build it into a perfect monster.....but where is the pride in that? Having another person build up your baby for you just sickens me. However, for me at least, there is always a cutoff point. I stop at auto trannies, body work (ANNOYING), and GEARS - I just can't do it all with my schedule, plus there are other things in life that interest me (and my wallet - how about blowing $10k on a microscope?? Yeah, can't build one of those yerself :rolleyes:) much more than FSJs.

I'm sure Mud Buzzard pays people to do things for him; no one can be entirely self-sufficient. I guess he's a sucker too. :p Some of us have other hobbies and can't devote 100% of our free time to FSJs, you know.

[Mud Buzzard]

I'm sure Mud Buzzard pays people to do things for him; no one can be entirely self-sufficient. I guess he's a sucker too. Not if it's something I can learn myself--but I am self-sufficient--where possible (I don't go to the grocery, I grow it myself.. I don't buy a steak, I buy a steer). Obviously, I can't learn to build microscopes without spending a helluva lot of time studying optics. But gears? We're talking hours or minutes NOT DAYS and MONTHS. It's not magic! I don't need a microscope, I need to get power to the ground and do it without breaking axles, u-joints, teeth, etc. ;) This is the off-road forum, not the pavement forum. If you can't fix gears(axles or lockers/bearings, etc), you're going to spend a helluva lot of money on tows and $200 in time can become $3000 or more quickly when you account for towing to their shop, weekend work, emergency repairs, whatever, etc. What are you going to do? Use your credit card? None of ya'll can apparently read (that's sarcasm by the way) and your analogies about microscopes and dental surgery are completely out of the realm of reason (that's not sarcasm). It doesn't apply to this basic task. I don't need a **** PhD (piled high and deeper) to do gears, axles, lockers, master install kits, cover bolts and no one else does either. It's something everyone with an off-road passion should know, understand, and be able to repair themselves. Yes, I have spare R&P in my truck when I go offroad. I also have spare shafts, hubs, a welder, air tools, compressor or CO2, and spare tire. That's my point. Go prepared and the biggest part of that equation is to have the knowledge and experience necessary to do it yourself. Off-roading and parts breaking ( the drivetrain) are a common issue on the trail or at the mud hole. Knowing how to fix things yourself is a lot cheaper than paying others to do it. Now if we're talking daily drivers, sure, you're not going to be replacing gears but maybe once every ten years and $200 is easier, cheaper, etc. But this is the off-road forum and we're not talking grandmother's cadillac.... ;) :D

[matt thompson]

I have spare R&P in my truck when I go offroad.

some things you shouldn't have to carry spares of, thats why we all like, talk about...swapping in beefier axles, so we don't have to do trail fixes in mud, or 3 ft of snow... why would I bring tools and an extra 14 bolt r & p if it breaks? I put it in there so it wouldn't break. when I have time and money I'll upgrade the front axle to be stout enough that I shouldn't have to worry about it either. I like bringin extra parts I need wheelin like u-joints, shafts...but I don't like the thought of towing a donor wagoneer behind me so I have every replacement part for everything on my rig.

Mud Buzzard-you have good points that most four wheelers are resourcefull handymen who like to do it ourselves and fix and build our own stuff, I havent done a gear swap before, though I have spent many hours researching it, and I've been trying to buy the tools I need to one day do it myself (right) like a torqometer, brass hammers, pinion depth tools, dial indicator, shop press... but to say every four wheeler should do it themselves, and that you can do it (properly) with just ordinary airtools is misinformation. I don't think that beginner offroad enthusiests/mechanics should jump right in thinkin it's simple. Ever seen what happens to a rig when the r & p locks up when it's goin 50mph?

[Mud Buzzard]

some things you shouldn't have to carry spares of, thats why we all like, talk about...swapping in beefier axles, so we don't have to do trail fixes in mud, or 3 ft of snow... why would I bring tools and an extra 14 bolt r & p if it breaks? I put it in there so it wouldn't break. when I have time and money I'll upgrade the front axle to be stout enough that I shouldn't have to worry about it either. I like bringin extra parts I need wheelin like u-joints, shafts...but I don't like the thought of towing a donor wagoneer behind me so I have every replacement part for everything on my rig.
Depends on how hard you wheel. I don't need body panels and so forth and with a carbed motor, it's a lot less problematic. I do carry spare electronic crap like an old MSD box I have laying around and a cheap coil. Things that are likely to break when I least expect it. I have broken 14 bolt axles (this is a 11.5" ring gear version out of a 8.1L and it came from the factory with 4.56s and detroit) and I snapped a yoke ear off on the same 14 bolt two days later and left that spare yoke at home, so I had to get a cab back to my house because everyone else was out working or unreachable. Spares are just smart. ;) I don't buy new stuff unless I can't find someone to trade or a yard that has what I want (99% of the time I can buy it used). I can buy them new, I just prefer to save the money for fuel or something that's beyond me like building microscopes and pulling peoples teeth out. :D So I try to spend as little as possible and make stuff last, we're on the same page though. Definitely build it right the first time. I wasn't saying we should all carry spares but trying to make a point about being resourceful and having a good working knowledge so you don't get taken advantage of by someone who is just as inexperienced as you may be. A lot of shops are just downright thieves. I don't trust them. ;) Mud Buzzard-you have good points that most four wheelers are resourcefull handymen who like to do it ourselves and fix and build our own stuff, I havent done a gear swap before, though I have spent many hours researching it, and I've been trying to buy the tools I need to one day do it myself (right) like a torqometer, brass hammers, pinion depth tools, dial indicator, shop press... but to say every four wheeler should do it themselves, and that you can do it (properly) with just ordinary airtools is misinformation. I don't think that beginner offroad enthusiests/mechanics should jump right in thinkin it's simple. Ever seen what happens to a rig when the r & p locks up when it's goin 50mph? I think there have been a lot of good points by everyone. We all wheel at different levels or in different terrain, but I like to encourage discovery and scaring newcomers by telling them gears are "magic" (not literally but it sounds like an enigma wrapped in riddle to a newcomer when someone who claims to be experienced tells them it's tough to do gears) and require thousands in tools. You can buy a used set of tools for 10% of the price of new tools and garage sales are a great place to look, but special tools are not necessary, only give people a level of comfort and they put their faith in those tools instead of their knowledge or good sound common sense. I don't take peoples word for stuff, I like to learn and study for myself. That said... Well, I can do it with just airtools, but not everyone can. Am I special? I don't think so and I know a few people who do it the same way I do, a couple of whom work at shops currently. I can't guarantee anyone else will be able to do it properly with just basic tools, but it's not misinformation. I've done it and had great success. Just like a lot of people have made millions one way or another and someone else can't make a dime doing the exact same thing under the best of circumstances. But at least they know how to do it and that it can work if they give it a shot. I would not discourage anyone who is into off-roading from learning to do gears and axles. It's a fundamental part of the hobby. Most of all, it's self-empowering and I like to see people become a success and have fun doing so... ;)

[Golden Goose]

i can't speak for us all, but what i'm trying to say is, setting up gears is not a simple 1/2 hour job you can do with 3 wrenches and a hammer... it's one of those things that for many of us is more efficient to farm out... as far as having to pay for towing to the shop and repairs if the gears blow and you don't know how to fix them, most reputable shops do or are required to offer a warranty on their labor and sometimes parts... so right there that's a big plus, if there's a problem within the warranty period you don't have to do anything besides call...

perhaps other mechanics and knowledgable people will chime in on this, but i'm pretty sure that ring and pinion failure is NOT supposed to be a common occurrence. u joints, locking hubs, yokes, yeah those will go from time to time. of course, making the wrong parts fit and jsut welding things together is always a winning combination when working with a precision application where strength and longevity are desired... :)

I'm not trying to scare a new wheeler away from learning how to do gears, it's something i am glad to know how to do. BUT, it's not as easy as changing your own oil, and it needs to be done right, for most people who don't run gigantic tires and enough horsepower to destroy their driveline, it's a better choice to have it professionally done so it won't be considered a 'wear item'...

[JeepNOFEAR]

I'm going to be try to set up my front hd44 but I let a friend do my 14 bolt because it will see 50 mph where a locked front won't.