how much lift for 38's on a wide-track???

[Grim Jeeper]

I have a 1980 wide track chief and would like to fit 38's. I searched the whole site but found nothing about how much lift it takes to fit 38's on a wide track. If any of you are running 38's could you please tell me what kind of lift and how much lift you have? I would greatly appreciate it. Please post pics too, I would like to see what it is going to look like.
Thanks alot.

Joe

[madsat]

use these links
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jjacobs149917/fsj_faq.htm#fits_hits
http://www.ifsja.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000023

[blackjeep2002]

I've got 3" of body and 3" of suspension on my 78 with 35's(no rub) and it "looks" like I could get 38's under there with only minor trimming. Haven't tried, however!
Good luck!
Keith :cool:

[Lindel]

Rusty's 6" spring lift, and a 3" body lift together, should get you what you want, with no rubbing (still might have to trim the flares a little, at full stuff, though)

[Rockwagon]

I have 4" springs and SOA in the front and a shackle flip in the rear similar to the River Beast and run 39.5 on full width one tons with a bunch of triming.

[Joe J-Truck]

In my opinion, Dana 44 axles cannot handle tires any bigger than 35" (unless you plan on never 'wheelin it). I run 35s and have twisted two stock D44 shafts already (one front and one rear). If you're going to run 38s, and locker(s)you really need some bigger axles.
RB twisted up his D44 axles with his 38s and now he's planning on going to 1 ton running gear.
As far as fitting into your WT, you'll have to cut sheetmetal unless you lift it to the moon (but that sucks because its too tippy - rolling your rig is not fun!)
If you trim your fenders with care and roll the lip in, you can have results that look good, almost factory and fit huge meats without having to lift your truck too much.
I'm running 35's with only a 3" suspension kit, no rubbing even at full stuff due to careful sheetmetal surgery. At Ouray, my rig sat lower than most, but with bigger tires. The low center of gravity kept it rock-solid when climbing hills and gnarly obstacles.
Good Luck!

[FSJeeper]

I can't tell you how many times I have seen guys upgrade their Dana 44's with high end u-joint's, R&P's, lockers, chromoly shafts, etc, etc, etc. and by the time they busted them several times it would have been way cheaper to buy the 1 ton axles to start out with.

For example, to upgrade your Dana 44's with gears to match the 38's, say 4.56 or 4.88's, put detroit lockers in, upgrade the ujoints, and put upgraded chromolly shafts in, you are up to over $2500. You can easily get into a set of Dana 60/14 bolt axles cheaper than that if you shop.

LOL, then after you upgrade the axles you will need to upgrade your driveshafts/yokes to at least 1350's because they will then be your weakest link. Your NP208 will hold up to this really well, be glad you don't have a Dana 20. It is common for them to break with big tires, high lift, and more power and or serious off road abuse.

My opinon, if you really use your 4x4 in your FSJ, and have stock axles, 33's are the biggest you should run and you will be OK. 35's if it is mostly street and not hard offroad use. Anything over that, and if you really use it, you will break. Period.

[blt2krl]

I don't know Joe I run my 37's on 44's. I've been to moab and rockcrawled some boulder fields in idaho. I haven't bent a tube yet. It all has to do with your right foot.

[blt2krl]

Grim Jeeper here is a pic of my rig on 37's. I could esaly fit 38's and I don't rub at all. I have WT axle on it.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/fda59052/bc/Jeep/Jeep.jpg?bczAKk9AyIgCxViA

[bchesley]

I am running 35's and have snapped a front and a rear axle shaft. I don't think it is so much the size of the tire as it is the weight of the vehicle and the size of the tire. I have a friend running 36's on a d44 that never has a problem, and he tortures that thing. But is on a small cherokee. I think that eventually the d44 will give out with anything bigger than a 35 with a full size loaded with trail gear. If you don't plan on wheeling it hard it won't really matter but if you are spend the money now, because is sucks driving around with broken axle shafts!!!!!

[Stuka]

Archiele ran 38's on his WT chero with 4" springs, SOA, and 3" body and had TONS of room. Then he took the SOA out (do to insurance probs) and the 38's still fit with the 4" springs and 3" body, although there wasnt nearly as much room. They would have rubbed if wheel to much i think.

[Joe J-Truck]

Originally posted by blt2crl:
I don't know Joe I run my 37's on 44's. I've been to moab and rockcrawled some boulder fields in idaho. I haven't bent a tube yet. It all has to do with your right foot.Carry spares! I do! With big tires under a heavy FSJ, D44's have a tendancy to bust parts...
I speak from experience. I like to 'wheel hard and drive aggressively. I use the throttle liberally. Breaking parts and fixing them is part of hardcore 4 wheeling, but personally, I'd rather run trails than replace axle shafts.
If you're running 37's on an FSJ w/ d44's and you wheel it hard, you're lucky you haven't snapped anything yet.

[orangecherokee]

i have a 4" skyjacker lift and a 2" body lift. i haven't sprung it over yet but it does seem to be in the near future. anyway, i haev 33's and they rub like a mother when i got a few folks in there with me. i'm going to put wide track axles on and i believe i'll be cuttin'. blackjeep, is yours sprung over? just wondering because 35's with only 6" that's nice.

[blt2krl]

Joe I agree with you on the axle shafts. I will be upgrading to 1 ton axles as well. Because I plan on running 42's. I haven't bent or broke anything because I wheel sensable. I like to hit the throttle just as much as the next guy but I try to be smart about it. Another reason why I haven't broke anything is because the WT axles under my rig are the 3/4 ton 44 axles. I agree that a 35 is as big as a 44 can handle on a litter rig. The thing about these posts is noone every says in the begining if they plan on serious wheeling or pavement pounding. :D

[Ralph]

There was a guy at Ouray who had J20 axles under a Wagoneer. The front fit just fine although he had to get tie rods from a WT vehicle. The rear axle needed to have the spring perches moved in a couple inches -- actually, he just welded on a pair next to the original ones. He also had a 4" lift and I believe he was running 35" tires. It looked very strong with those axles.

[River Beast]

Ok.... I have 38's and no rubbing.... SOA'd with 4" Skyjacker springs and 3" body and slight trimming in the rear on a 78 Waggie.

I would do an SOA for starters and add the 3" bodylift and keep the 38's on a 10" rim and you should be fine... for a W/T

As for strengh of 44's with BIG meat... I have to say... I agree with FSJeeper...

I have 4.89's and Detroits in my 44's... I did Imogene Pass with this setup, but after further inspection (day after) I have bent both axles (not bad, but visully seen) and D20 adapter mounting is toasted at the t-case mount.

44's, I believe will be fine for up to a 35" tire WITH the right gearing....but if you plan on going 36"+ on tires, UPGRADE to 3/4T-1 TON axles and save your money in the long run!!!!!

I will be upgrading VERY soon and will have to bite the bullet and loose LOTS of $$$ I sunk into my D44's.... close to $2k in parts in labor (Thats actually pretty good) and will be selling my Detroits and 4.89's as a matched set I have less than 5000 miles on the setup to help finance the upgrade!!!! :mad:

Oh yeah... and I need to sell my 2 year old Eagle 589's (15x12's) to get new rims as well to fit the 8 lug axles.... UGH!!!!!

Anyway... I always said... do it right the FIRST TIME and save your money in the long run.... I should have listened to myself... :rolleyes:

[ August 26, 2002, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[porkchop]

I should have listened to myself...
Where's the fun in that? ;)

[ August 26, 2002, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: porkchop ]

[Sycho15]

Seeing as how D44s can really only handle 35-36" tires on a heavy vehichle that is getting abused, I wouldn't run any lower gearing than 4.10-4.56. Anything lower and that pinion gear gets way too small for my taste. Put the gear reduction where it belongs- in the drivetrain. If SWB Jeeps are able to run dual X-cases and be tall enough to fit 38" tires, a FSJ should be able to do it even more easily with that longer rear driveshaft.

V-8s should be able to spin 36x12.5" tires with 4.10 gears just fine. I-6s might need the 4.56 gears.

I don't plan on going lower than 4.10 in the axles of either of the Jeeps I'm keeping (YJ and J-10).

[River Beast]

LMAO!!!

I guess you don't learn otherwise, eh Bryant? ;)

[porkchop]

True, most things I have learned are from my own stupidity. :D

I am running 4.56's with my 35's.

[FSJeeper]

It is all a matter of physics. A stock Dana 44 is a superb axle and is very servicable for the duties it was intended to perform. You could not ask for a better axle for a stock FSJ.

The problem is when you take a FSJ with Dana 44's with 20 years plus wear and tear on it. Add wheels and tires that are at least twice the wieght of the stock wheels and tires, take into account these wheels and tires are generally going to be wider than stock, you begin to see that you are stressing the axle way more than it was designed for. Bottom line, unless you baby it, it is going to break. Just a matter of time.

First, at least doubling the wieght of the wheels and tires adds much more stress than just doubling the wieght on the axle. This wieght is unsprung reciprocating mass. The effect of the stresses this causes on the axle is exponential depending on the circumstances (street vs high rpm mud bogging for ex.) so the stress on the axle components is much more than double.

Second, the wider track of the wider tires will induce more leverage on your axles components which causes more stress.

Third, taller tires generally require higher lifts, but always to some degree increase the center of gravity. The higher you raise the center of gravity, the more stress you put on your brake system which may be taxed way more than it is able to handle depending on the tires.
Bottom line, you loose braking ability therefore safety.

Fourth, the more you raise the center of gravity, the more leverage you put on your drivetrain and axles. Not only does this put additional stress on the axles, it also puts a lot more into your driveshafts and transmission and tcase. Also, most of the time, lifting a vehicle generally means altering your driveline angles which puts a lot more stress on your ujoints. There are ways to fix this, but not cheap.

Fifth, taller tires require taller gears. The ring and pinion multiply torque to the wheels. So, if you have 3.54 gears, are going to 38's which would require something like 4.88's, you are increasing the torque on your gears and axle components about 37% more in addition to the other stresses previously mentioned. Taller gears means a smaller pinion which means less strength. (Some debate this.)

Sixth, adding lockers, especially something like a detroit or even spools, amplify the above mentioned stresses.

Seventh, most of you have Dana 44's that are over 20 years old. Add the above mentioned stresses to axles that have 20 years plus wear and tear on them and the result is obvious. Breakage.

If you baby your Dana 44's with 38's and keep them well serviced, of course they are going to be adequate.

You can baby them all you want, but imagine you were out out in the middle of nowhere and you needed to get back home. It rains seriously. Mud forms everywhere. You are not familiar with the area you are in. You find the only way to make it through some of the deep mud is purely through high rpm spinning. Your 38's work great. Do exactly what you paid for them to do. Sling mud and gain traction. As you are spinning at high rpms, and you are 50 miles from the nearest road, the thought occurs to you. "What would happen to my Dana 44's as I am spinning these 38's at high rpms and I suddenly hit rock bottom and got 100% traction.................."

[blt2krl]

Good points FSJEEPER. I totally agree with you. I also have seen Dana 60 axle shafts snap like twigs turning 38 on a cj-7 in the snow. In any situation you have tire spin and sudden traction you run the rick of snaping something. Granted bigger axles have a higher tolerance than the half ton versions.

[FSJeeper]

Blt2crl,

LMAO, I realized after reading my last post I would be worried about hooking up 100% traction while spinning 38's at high rpms even with custom chromolly shafts and 35 spine all the way out in my front dana 60. Man, under those circumstances, something would have to give on just about any 4x4.

[Baldy]

My .02 (Cndn) ... a 38.5 11 wide bogger on D44s with gearing no lower than 4.56 is doable. Once you go to a taller/wider tire or lower gears breakage will occur. Would I run wide 38s on anything less than a D60? No way....the tire is waaaaay too heavy, the footprint (which equals traction) is too much for half ton axles. OTOH.. why would you wanna upgrade to one tons for anything less than 37s, if you ever air down you'll quickly become aware of the location of your diffs, over and over again. It all comes down to driving style in the end. FSJeeper...your scenario is perfect for breaking any/all axles out there....gotta love it.