Cummins 4 cylinder ISB

[FSJeeper]

Just some rambling thoughts and daydreaming here......

I have been doing a lot of research on the Cummins 4BT's and have chatted with a number of 4BT swap owners in various types of 4x4's.

This engine seems to be a perfect match for our FSJ's with the exception of 2 major problems. Noise and vibration. The more you crank up the 4BT, the more noise and vibration it makes. OK for an open top trail rig or hard core Full Size, but I don't think it would suit those who use their FSJ's as a daily driver. This opinion is from first hand experience with these engines. There are expensive cures for the vibration issues, but you can't get rid of the noise effectively. You can insulate, put sound deadening barriers up, etc., it is still too loud for a family vehicle application. This is too bad for those who want a diesel FSJ to use for business and long trips with the family. Forget about comfortable cell phone useage and listening to music with high quality stereo with the 4BT.

This of course is my opinion and I am sure there are those who have made the swap that would disagree and I would love some feedback. I wish someone could, based on facts, tell me how you can make the 4BT useable in a family/business vehicle application.

I am seriously thinking about using a FSJ Grand Wagoneer for business use
and would want to go diesel for mileage and reliability. A cherried out Wagoneer is becoming a status symbol and are admired so it would definitely work for business now. The 4BT just would not cut it picking up suit and tie clients at fancy hotels and going to nice restaurants. The 6BT, while quieter and acceptable in the noise and vibration areas, is overkill for a daily driver, non towing, transporation vehicle and requires changing axles and drivetrain to a one ton level, beefing the frame, and a lot of other issues that are not necessary for the intended application.

I recently picked up a Dodge 6BT truck to do a swap into a Grand Wagoneer and after long thought, for the purposes of the vehicle, its way overkill and it defeats the intended purpose of the wagoneer.

This is going to raise a few eyebrows, but for a daily driven business vehicle the 6.2/6.5, properly built, is still the best diesel option for a FSJ with that intended use. (Ducking for cover now!) This opinion comes after years of experience with this engine. I am not saying the GM diesel is better than the Cummins engine because it is not even in the same ball park, I am saying that for the intended application, it is better suited if built properly.

For a weekend trail rig or other applications where the noise and vibration is not an issue, I think the 4BT is the optimum FSJ engine.

And for sure, for towing and truck useage, the 6BT wins hands down, without a doubt, and that is what I am going to be running in my crewcab M715 truck.

All of that said, I take it all back. Cummins in England came out with a new 4BT that does not vibrate, is very quiet, gets better fuel mileage, and is much more powerful than a standard 4BT. They came out with it last year and it is available in europe now. There have been a few show up in the states but they are not readily available here and are not imported/marketed for US applications yet. (Freightliner had a deal on this engine but went to the Mercedes engine instead. No surprise there cause Mercedes owns freightliner.)

This is the holy grail in terms of a FSJ diesel engine. I just don't see how it can get any better. 600 ft lbs of torque at 1200 rpms, how does it get better than that? I would wager this would defintely be a 30 MPG engine in a FSJ if geared right.

http://regions.cummins.com/eu/pages/en/products/bus/engines/isbe/index.cfm

[JeepinPete]

The only issue I can see with that engine in the eyes of many is it is computer controlled. That and the price, which I am sure will be much close to $10k than $5k. And one correction, it is 600Nm torque, or 440 ftlbs...

[Lindel]

Pascal, if the emissions are the same in Victoria as they are here in Henderson county, that Euro 4BT would be the way to go.

Is the older 4BT that much louder than a 6BT? Those can be pretty loud, at least from the outside of the truck.

[Elliott]

It weighs 817 Lbs., maybe that's not bad for a diesel.

[FSJeeper]

Pete, thanks for the correction on the torque figure. And I agree, the computer controlled 4BT is not as simple as a mechanical unit, but look what you get for the trade off.

Lindel, every diesel I have had inspected, in either Victoria or Houston, was exempt from emmissions. Back when I was using a CUCV for truck duty, my first diesel truck, I was so surprised when I got it inpected and all they checked was the safety stuff, like lights and tires. Just like the good old days.

[Hammer]

For that usage, why not a Mercedes or Isuzu diesel? Turbo of course.
And for that amount of money, get the diesel out of a Dodge Sprinter Van.
All of those would be quiet enough, especially the newer Mercedes in teh Sprinter. Something you can buy parts for locally.
And should give plenty of power and mileage for you.
And reliability, sheesh, those old Mercedes diesels run forever!

Or, if your not as worried about the money end of it, just grab a fairly recent Duramax. They are very common now, plenty of stock power, etc. And they are a Chevy drop in, so why waste time/effort on a 6.2/6.5 when the Duramax is so much better?

[The PIG Smith]

This is going to raise a few eyebrows, but for a daily driven business vehicle the 6.2/6.5, properly built, is still the best diesel option for a FSJ with that intended use. (Ducking for cover now!) This opinion comes after years of experience with this engine. I am not saying the GM diesel is better than the Cummins engine because it is not even in the same ball park, I am saying that for the intended application, it is better suited if built properly.
I will stand with you on this point.
Let the Nay-Sayers get us both! HAHAHAHA

What you have proposed is exactly what my plans are for my 1986 Grand Wagoneer.
I desire to have a DD, Family Hauler that will not kill my wallet at the pump.
I believe the 6.2 in my 1993 GMC Van donor is the ticket.
It's thrifty, powerful enough for a DD and for the most part, quiet.
Maybe at some later point in time, I may up the HP some with a Turbo or other small mods, but I do not expect to ever have a high horsepower street machine.
If I keep my expectations realistic, I should not be disappointed.
My economy goal is low to mid 20s, which should be better than any other new SUV of the same size and class.

On the other hand, my brother has a 1997 Ford F-150 powered by a Cummins 4BT.
In my opinion, it does make a lot of noise and vibrate on startup and shutdown.
But traveling down the road, the noise level/vibration is not that bad.

On the 4BTSwap's forum, they talk about an internal counter balancer that is installed in the oil pan area.
This makes modifying the oil pan for a front axle difficult.
I dunno how well this balancer works to reduce the vibrations.

Read more about it here: (with pictures)
Internal Balancer (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1787&highlight=balancer)

Here are some links to the pics....I dunno if this will work

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1107&d=1191725664

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1108&d=1191725664

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1109&d=1191725664


Posted not long ago here was a fellow that installed a Cummins 4BT in an early Bronco that claims that his 4BT produces 400HP.
Cummins 4BT in a early Ford Bronco (http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0709dp_1966_ford_bronco/photos.html)

I am not here to debate this point, but wish to point out what his engine builder, Beck Racing accomplished.
They balanced and blueprinted the 4BT and report "vibration-free operation".
How did they do this?
Just how vibration free is this 4BT?
Is it a stretch like the 400HP?

[Zorm]

just a thought but what about one of those Nissan diesels out of those CJ10 tow rigs?

[Hammer]

Oh yeah, I would say that no matter what your choice is, it MUST have a turbo.
This cleans up the smoke so much it's not funny (especially for the 6.2/6.5s).
And with the level of your clients, I am pretty sure they do NOT want to see you leaving a black trail behind you everytime you accelerate!

Honestly, the 6.5 turbo would be a fine motor for what you are thinking about. Cheapest setup as well.
But for showing off to your clients, why not run a Duramax? Not much more difficult to swap in, will get great mileage if geared right, and has a big bragging factor!
That and it should fit in the FSJ engine bay about the same as the 6.5 turbo would.

[JeepinPete]

I serious doubt "vibration free" is possible in any large displacement 4 cylinder. You can do quite a few things to minimize it, but it will alway vibrate more than a I6 or V8. Heck, my little 1.9L TDI vibrates pretty good at idle, and it is half the size, and made for the refinement conscience car market.

[FSJeeper]

Honestly, the 6.5 turbo would be a fine motor for what you are thinking about. Cheapest setup as well. But for showing off to your clients, why not run a Duramax? Not much more difficult to swap in, will get great mileage if geared right, and has a big bragging factor! That and it should fit in the FSJ engine bay about the same as the 6.5 turbo would.

Hammer, remember that custom 6.2/6.5 that I have? It is not the run of the mill GM diesel. It has like $2500 worth of machinework, lightening, balancing, blueprinting, porting/flowing, shot peening, nitriding in the assembly and literally thousands of dollars in the best of the best parts you can put in one. Not to mention the custom Banks turbo setup designed for this specific engine. Dynoed at over 300hp and 450 ft lbs at 1900. Thats close enough to a duramax not to have to spend another several thousand dollars for another Chevy diesel. And it will definitely get better fuel mileage. I know I'll get over 20MPG in it cause that is what it got in that 8000lb M715 with 4.56's. You have seen this engine in an M715, you know what it will do. And it purrs like a kitten and very quiet. A normal Cummins 4BT can't compete with it and a Duramax isn't that intersting enough to buy one for this FSJ.

Tell me more about the MB in the sprinter. Rumour has it that adapters are available to fit up US drivetrains to it.

Still, you have to admit, the 4BT ISB would be awsome in the FSJ.

[chr1s]

A cherried out Wagoneer is becoming a status symbol and are admired so it would definitely work for business now.
Crazy, but true. Its funny how life goes in these cycles.
I get some kind of weird respect and admiration when I bring the Wag on "Business". I usually reserve those trips for the BMW (yeah, let the flaming commence)

Im keeping an eye on any and all of these diesel threads because when the 360 gives up the ghost (and we all know its just a matter of time) I can whole heartedly say Im going with a diesel swap!

[The PIG Smith]

Tell me more about the MB in the sprinter. Rumour has it that adapters are available to fit up US drivetrains to it.

Still, you have to admit, the 4BT ISB would be awsome in the FSJ.
I am under the impression that the Benz Diesel from a Sprinter has a MOPAR Bell Housing Bolt Pattern and uses the same tranny found in Dodge RAMS.
I do not know if this fact or fiction.

Yes, an ISB would be sweet, but it would like any other modern Diesel, computerized.
ECM, sensors, wiring harness, blah, blah blah...

The beauty of a Cummins 4BT, early 6BT and GM 6.2/6.5 Diesel is they are all mechanical engines.
No stinking computer!

That HOT 6.5 Diesel sounds like that is the Cat's Meow!
Please tell us GM Diesel enthusiasts more about what you have done to it, good things, things you would not do again, future mods and other plans.

[FSJeeper]

That HOT 6.5 Diesel sounds like that is the Cat's Meow!
Please tell us GM Diesel enthusiasts more about what you have done to it, good things, things you would not do again, future mods and other plans.

One of these days I'll sit down and do a write-up on it. Simply too much to list. It was built by a professional diesel mechanic as his version of the perfect FSJ engine.
He took the best parts from the various 6.2/6.5 years engines and combined them for this engine. There was no budget for this engine, simply the best money could buy at the time. The Pennisular marine pistons, BD gear drive, custom injectors and pump, and the custom Banks turbo setup make up the core of the major parts. But the thing that impressed me watching this engine built up was the meticulous detail that was given to every single part. The rods and crank were lightened, shot peened, and then polished to a mirror finish. Then they were nitrided. The machine work/blueprinting done to this engine was like nothing I have ever seen. I mean everything was done to perfection down to balancing the enitre reciprocating assembly all the way to the pressure plate and harmonic balancer included. The heads had a 4 angle valve job and were ported and flowed. Etc. etc.
The block was a work of art prior to assembly. And then every piece was hand fitted for optimum fit while putting it together, I mean down to changing out bearing shells on each journal until it was perfect tolerances. It was built way beyond spec. I watched this engine come together, I have never seen anyone so anal in my life.

The guy who built it got a lot of attention over at the 6.2/6.5 Diesel Page and he built it to compete with their
6.5 project at the time about 6 or so years ago.

The only thing I would have had done differently was gone with the aluminum rods that became available right after the engine was built.

To give you an idea, the engine winds up fast for a diesel and performs like a good big block chevy but with a lot more torque and a lot better fuel mileage.

[The PIG Smith]

To give you an idea, the engine winds up fast for a diesel and performs like a good big block chevy but with a lot more torque and a lot better fuel mileage.

I am getting excited! WhoooooHoooooo!!
Keep feeding my enthusiasm!!

My plan is to run my 6.2L as is and then later, as the budge allows, build up a Killer GM Diesel like you have described.
I hope I can achieve some similar results when I finished.

I know that DieselSJ from this forum and on the TheDieselPage has some awesome results with his 6.5TD in a Wagoneer.

[Hammer]

FSJeeper, Didn't know you still had that engine.
I would put that engine in without any questions. We both know that all the downsides were pretty much eliminated when it was built.
Well, except the history of those engines, that will always be a shadow over your head when dealing with any of those motors.


I second the MB diesel pretty much bolting up. Just run custom engine mounts and your set! Well, make sure your spacing to the radiator, etc.

Still, you already have a perfect engine for a Wag. Great power, mileage, and actual reliability.

[DieselSJ]

I'll throw my vote in for the 6.2/6.5 also. It is one of the quietest and smoothest diesels that I have found. It rattles a bit when cold, but once it is warm it is quiet (relatively) at cruise. I also don't have any of my underdash insulation or anything yet, but I have no problem with conversations with passengers or on my cell phone. Great torque. Great acceleration. Good mileage. What is not to love?

[DieselSJ]

I second the MB diesel pretty much bolting up. Just run custom engine mounts and your set! Well, make sure your spacing to the radiator, etc.

Still, you already have a perfect engine for a Wag. Great power, mileage, and actual reliability.

Bolting up to what? We don't have Mopar bellhousing patterns...

[mdill]

Bolting up to what? We don't have Mopar bellhousing patterns...

No, but we can get a Mopar pattern with a very simple tranny case swap.

Mike D

[mdill]

It weighs 817 Lbs., maybe that's not bad for a diesel.

But the 39 liters( ~10+) gallons of oil that adds another ~60+lbs.
I think I know why they have a long service interval;)

Profile:
Displacement:
3.9 litres
Length
Width
Height
Weight (dry)
Total lubrication system capacity:
39 litres
810 mm
720 mm
820 mm
370 kg
Engine cooling system capacity
8.5 litres

[Mikel]

10+ gallons?? My 4BT takes 12 qts :confused:

But the 39 liters( ~10+) gallons of oil that adds another ~60+lbs.
I think I know why they have a long service interval;)

Profile:
Displacement:
3.9 litres
Length
Width
Height
Weight (dry)
Total lubrication system capacity:
39 litres
810 mm
720 mm
820 mm
370 kg
Engine cooling system capacity
8.5 litres

[DieselSJ]

just a thought but what about one of those Nissan diesels out of those CJ10 tow rigs?

I know someone that stuffed one into a CJ7. Performance was totally mediocre. Off-idle torque was good, but it was a dog everywhere else. He is in the process of pulling it and swapping in a 4bt.

[nixgtp]

Im still getting parts for my rig together, but i thought i might chime in since i work in the engineering dept for cummins. I would highly suggest modding up an intercooling system for the engine. You can pretty much garantee lower egts, intake temps, and better fuel milage. and belive me from a guy who sees all tre problems with the engines every day. Do your self a favor find an alternate source of getting the fuel to the engine than the cummins lift pump. And if you do use that lift pump, carry a hammer with you if you hit it hard enough it will run, not even joking. As for me im picking up an international 6.9L diesel for 200 bucks on saturday and a set of 40 inch sts trxus tires i got for 150 (freaking steal, over half tread). For a 68 waggy.

[J10Mike]

Im still getting parts for my rig together, but i thought i might chime in since i work in the engineering dept for cummins. I would highly suggest modding up an intercooling system for the engine. You can pretty much garantee lower egts, intake temps, and better fuel milage. and belive me from a guy who sees all tre problems with the engines every day. Do your self a favor find an alternate source of getting the fuel to the engine than the cummins lift pump. And if you do use that lift pump, carry a hammer with you if you hit it hard enough it will run, not even joking. As for me im picking up an international 6.9L diesel for 200 bucks on saturday and a set of 40 inch sts trxus tires i got for 150 (freaking steal, over half tread). For a 68 waggy.
On that lift pump...Do you mean the mechanical lift pump? Or, that POS electronic lift pump or similar (for the 4BT) found on the 24V CTDs?

[J10Mike]

I second the MB diesel pretty much bolting up. Just run custom engine mounts and your set! Well, make sure your spacing to the radiator, etc.
Wrong...I have already looked into it as far as a Mopar bolt up. The Dodge Sprinter van is a Benz thoughout. It's been on the road in Europe since 1992. Up to 06 or maybe 07, it used a Benz 5 cyl diesel. Due to lack of power, they went to a 6 cyl diesel.
The point is...With the exception of the front grill and dash layout, it's completely Benz and has no compatibility with other Mopar products.
Not quite the bolt up...Still thinkin' 4BT for my RC.

[The PIG Smith]

Wrong...I have already looked into it as far as a Mopar bolt up. The Dodge Sprinter van is a Benz thoughout. It's been on the road in Europe since 1992. Up to 06 or maybe 07, it used a Benz 5 cyl diesel. Due to lack of power, they went to a 6 cyl diesel.
The point is...With the exception of the front grill and dash layout, it's completely Benz and has no compatibility with other Mopar products.
Not quite the bolt up...Still thinkin' 4BT for my RC.

I'll take the heat for some of this bad info.
I was told that the Sprinter was a Benz/MOPAR joint effort and shared some drivetrain components.
Seems that I am wrong.
Thanx for education Mike.

[Hammer]

Hmm, I was going on the idea that this diesel was similair to the one used in the G wagon, which uses Getrag transmissions. That is an all MB vehicle, but that transmission is fairly common.
Drats if it doesn't all carry over then...

[rawdave]

This is the one I want. Same bolt pattern as Ford F-250 Diesel and comes in CF-500 International box trucks.

http://www.maxxforce.com/products/details.aspx?classid=1&itemid=001

There is also a V8

http://www.maxxforce.com/products/details.aspx?classid=1

[Hammer]

Interesting note about that V6 version.

B10/B50 Life: 250,000/408,500 miles

Guess they really believe the lifepspan will be greatly increased with the added lubricity of the bio!

[J10Mike]

I'll take the heat for some of this bad info.
I was told that the Sprinter was a Benz/MOPAR joint effort and shared some drivetrain components.
Seems that I am wrong.
Thanx for education Mike.
Bryan,
The only thing joint effort Benz/Dodge on the Sprinter van is the grill and dash layout. Other than that, it's a Benz.

[83LaredoWT]

Good topic.

I am in the process of converting over to a 4BTA and Chrysler A618 overdrive in my '83 Cherokee W/T. I do plan on using it as a daily driver but don't have to worry about serving client's like you do. I listened to several 4bt's running in bread vans when I bought mine and it did not seem as loud as the early 24 valve 6bt's found in Dodge trucks from 98-2002. I plan on doing extensive sound deadening both in the engine compartment and inside the vehicle.

I cannot speak to the vibration yet but plan to use the bread van mounts. It will be an interesting build. Because the plan is going to be a daily driver and I want full time 4wd I will be using the original NP229 case mated to the A618 diesel trans and the original axles with 3.31 gears. I will need to relocate the fuel tank behind the rear axle with a larger capacity plastic Ramcharger tank.

Overall I hope the fuel economy and reliability make for a fun enjoyable driver.

[COLOFIREMAN]

FSJeeper and Pig Smith are both right on many of the points. But I did drive my bread wagon for 2-weeks before I pulled the motor. The funny thing was, even though the van was empty and I didn't think it was unbearable. Yes it's louder on the outside than a SB350 is, louder than a isuzu engine would be, but I have to say this all can and is being worked through in my swap. I also own a 01' 24V Dodge truck and I think it make a heck of alot more noise than my 4BT did.
http://4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1278 <----this is a link to my swap.

I thought alot about the GM and the 6BT but ultimatelly found the 4BT to be the best of all worlds. Ease of swap, availability, weight, choice of transmissions, MPG, and high alititude of angle runability. With the turbo upgrades I plan to do on the 4BT I should have 185 real HP and over 300 in torque. I compare that to the AMC360 that I removed, haveing the same numbers, and I like the fact that I should have doubled my MPG that it was giving me at the min.:thumbsup:

A far as the GM swap question goes, this link talked a little about it.
http://4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2010&highlight=6.5+Gm+swap

But if I had not been able to find a 4BT a easy as I did on www.dovebid.com (http://www.dovebid.com) I would have gone for the 6.5 GMTD.