14 bolt or Dana 70?

[FYR WOOD]

went yardin' today and found both a 14 bolt FF and Dana 70 FF. What are the opinions on my choices here? Also, has anyone ever seen an 8 lug Dana 44 that is full time (no manual hubs)? Buddy of mine got one and the only advantage seems to be the 35 spline stubs. Everything else looks completely different. CRAZY.

[Gwamp]

strength wise, they are about the same. 14 bolt has a cheaper locker, but you are limited to 5.13 gears(if that matters).

[J20 project]

Most of the 3/4 tons in the 70's had Dana 44HD's w/ full time four wheel drive, including Jeep so no hubs doesn't change much on them. My 76 came that way. If you want to put hubs on it, no sweat, Warn makes them and they run about $110 a pair. Different than the 1/2 tons.
J20

[Rockwagon]

14 bolt is cheaper and generaly more common so that is my axle of choice.

[scotty]

when youre talking about 35 splines,what are you refering to? the outer stubs on a 44,or the spline count on the 14 bolt vs 70 shafts?

i have never seen or even heard of a 44 with 35 spline outer stubshafts :eek: all ive ever seen on any 10 bolt or 44 with internal mount hubs is 19 splines.

if you are refering to the axle spline counts for 70 and 14 bolt,rest assured the shafts are bout the same size(1.5 inches) and 5 less splines is not really enuf to worry about,IMO-the shafts are of comparable strenght

on the axle choice,id agree with rockwagon. 14 bolt is cheap and plentiful,so spare parts are easy to get,and the detroit for a 14 bolt is dirt cheap. lots of people sell brackets for disc conversions. plus this axle is easy as pie to work on,withthe funky adjuster rings to set backlas and preload.

if you can get a d70 for same price,only advantage would be if you wanted lower than the 5.13 axle gears,or absolutely had to have an ARB instead of one of the other brands of selectable locker that are coming out. an ARB does not exist for the 14 bolt,but other companies are spossed to be making selectable lockers for the 70 and 14 bolt.

i guess if you were a hardcore jeep purist,you may feel less guilty swappig in different dana axles than you would GM axles. by the time im done adding gm parts to mine,i maight as well have swapped my GW body onto a k5 blazer frame ;) but that wouldnt have been any fun tongue.gif

[ December 20, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[flyboy]

is the 14 and the 70 the same width? Most 70's were duals

[FYR WOOD]

We found an 8lug Dana 44 out of, I wanna say, a late sixties Dodge pickup. The stub shafts on the axle are only about 4 inches long and without a doubt 35 splines. There is no external hub, and only one wheel bearing. The wheel bearing and rotor assembly are held onto the stub shaft by only one hub nut, kind of like one you might find on a front wheel drive car. The knuckles look completely different from any other Dana 44 or GM 10 bolt I have ever seen, though they are flat top. The caliper is held to the knuckle with just a typical boomerang shaped bracket. Was the strangest thing I'd ever seen.

[TexasJ10]

FYR WOOD, What do you want to put the 70 or 14 bolt into? The 14 bolt drum brakes may hit the springs if you are putting it into a j truck.

[bchesley]

I have a freind running a dana 70 in a small cherokee and he loves it. It was out a dodge dually so it was about 4 inches more narrow. It works great but the detroit is expensive. The way I look at it is if you need a dana 70 to stand up to the wheeling you do than why not do a lincoln locker and save some money. The one good thing is on the 14 bolt is parts in the junk yard are a dime a dozen!! just my two cents.

[scotty]

Originally posted by FYR WOOD:
The stub shafts on the axle are only about 4 inches long and without a doubt 35 splines. There is no external hub, and only one wheel bearing. The wheel bearing and rotor assembly are held onto the stub shaft by only one hub nut, kind of like one you might find on a front wheel drive car. The knuckles look completely different from any other Dana 44 or GM 10 bolt I have ever seen, though they are flat top. The caliper is held to the knuckle with just a typical boomerang shaped bracket. Was the strangest thing I'd ever seen.oooooohhhhh,makes more sense now smile.gif youve got one of the goofy dodge full time deals,i have seen them.same basic prinipal as the xj/yj/tj sealed bearing hub assembly.like you said,much like a FWD car.

i have never taken one apart,tho,so i had no idea what one of them would look like. id thot they were later than 60s,tho,sometime in the 70s in rigs equipped with the full time 203 x case. i dont know alot about dodge,tho,so you could be right on the year.

what is the diameter of the shaft? just cause its 35 splines desnt neccesarily mean its got a big strength advantage. scout 44 outer stubs are 27 spline,but i dont thinkthat makes em any stronger than the jeep/gm 19 spline subs.

another prollem with this setup is the lack of lockouts :eek: if it rides to the woods on a trailer and has an open diff or selectable locker,full time is not a big deal,until something breaks.

if i grenade my R&P on my 44,i can unlock the hubs,put the xfer in 2wd and limp it to camp.with the full time dodge unit,everything is gonna spin,period. you would have to pull the front driveshaft,and pull the inner axlesahfts in order to limp it vey far.

id assume that this setup,like the xj/tj/yj needs the stub shaft and nut to be present to keep the wheel bearing assembly pressed together,so in the event of severe breakage youll need to pull the sahfts,seperate the stubs,and put it back together with stubs installed in the hub assembly. otherwise the hub could seperate,wich means the wheel will fall off :eek: when i used to wheel my amc eagle,wich had the same basic design,i carried with me a set of hub assemblies with cut down stubs installed in case i ever had to limp it home with nothing spinning.

IMO,it would be worth finding a different 3/4 ton 44 or 10 bolt in order to have a more conventional bearing/hub assembly. withthe geep/gm stuff,you can always pop out the drive flanges in a pinch smile.gif much easier than sealed bearing setup,and parts are prolly more readily available as well.

[ December 21, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[scotty]

Originally posted by flyboy:
is the 14 and the 70 the same width? Most 70's were dualsnot sure on 70 widths,but some Wheel Mounting Surface to WMS umbers for 14 bolts are:
single wheel pickup- 67.5 inches
cab&chassis dually- 63.5 inches
dually pickup- 72 inches
van- 70 inches

[FYR WOOD]

yea...I was just talking with him and we thought about the fact that if a stub shaft breaks, then the wheel comes with it. This is goin in a buggy, so it will be trailered everywhere. Unfortunately, funds are tight and the pickins for front 60's are slim to none. We are gonna put it together with another 44 and see what happens. Thankfully, the buggy is powered by a 4.3, so horsepower breakage shouldnt be a problem, although it is running a doubler. Who knows, I guess we live and learn.

[oldyellowwagoneer]

My 70 out of a dodge cummins 3/4 ton bolted right into my wagoneer. I used the dodge brake line with a .45 cent reducer as its very long, long enough for my 11" suspension lift. I kept the stock master cylinder and the brakes work great with no problems. DENNIS

[Joe J-Truck]

It seems to me the pumpkin on a 14 bolt hangs down a bit more than that of a d70, I think the d70 may give a bit more ground clearance...
Some food for thought.

[Gwamp]

The pumpkin does hang down a bit further, but there is LOTS of excess metal to grind off. I should have no trouble taking off 3/4 of an inch without hurting the strength of the axle at all.

[scotty]

i shaved an inch off of mine smile.gif i added a truss and a diff gaurd,and im not worried a bit about breakin it cause of the metal i cut off. i have around 11" under my rear 14 bolt,and about 11.5" under my front 44. the 1/2 inch differnece is pretty goof,IMO considering the size and strength of the rear...

you can get even less,if you really want to. ive seen guys on the pirate4x4 page cut the buttom of the housig off,weld on a flat plate,and actually shave some off the ring gear to get about the same clearance as a 44 :eek:

i dont think there is much less clearance with a d70. they both have a 10.5" ring gear. i dont knof if front and rear 70s may differ,but im pretty sure my front 70 hangs down almost as much as the 14 bolt-close to 6.5" below the axle centerline

tho,its been awhile since i measured it. maybe ill go out and measure him again...

[ December 22, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Gwamp]

Hey scotty, did you make or buy your diff guard? I have seen some pretty heavy duty solid bar stock ones for sale on E-bay. A full inch eh? Cool, I haven't got that far yet into upgrading my axle yet. I have seen those pics of the super shaved and welded ones and I don't think I want to sacrifice the strength of the axle for another 1/2 inch or so of clearence. If I need more clearance, I'll just get bigger tires! :D

[scotty]

i made mine. i cut it out from a chunk of 1/4" (i think) plate. and then bent some other flatstock i had layin around for the rest.if i had actually gone and bought metal for this purpose,id have used round for the braces. it was a fair amt of work cutting it out,but i just couldnt see spending that much $$ on one and then hafta cut a bunch off the bottom of it. i know one guy that runs one of those rock rings on his shaved 14 bolt,and it hangs an inch down below the axle. :eek: not sure what the point is,mine as well have left the axle alone if the rock ring is still gona hang down and grab stuff...

in order to get a full inch off the bottom,i cut about halfway into that bottom most bolt hole. i welded what was left closed and smoothed it out,thats the biggest reason i built the diff gaurd-to keep from peeling the cover backsince that hole is gone,and the cover is so close to the edge. ive shaved enuff metal from close to the 2 holes on either side of the missing bottom hole that the regular bolts would have hung over,so those 4 bottom bolts i use smaller diameter allen head bolts.

i cant really use a gasket now,so i just use silicone on the cover,and it doesnt leak. and ive drug it over all kinds of stuff,no prollems to date smile.gif in addition to cutting off metal,i smoothed out everyting that even remotely resembled an edge that would catch on stuff

i didnt really think that the hassle/risk of cutting the bottom and turning the ring gear were wort the extra 1/2" or so,either. next one that i pick up for dirt cheap,however,i may try that,for kicks. since ive got a working axle under there,now,i wont be out anything if i accidentally mess up a housing smile.gif

[ December 23, 2002, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]