Longer front springs: 52" Chevy REAR springs work well

[Bob Barry]

I've had a problem breaking my main-leafs on the trail; last four times out, I broke a main-leaf on my right-side three of those times (and the fourth was a downhill snowy trail, so little opportunity to break there). These were used Waggy 7-leaf mains, and one Cherokee 2-leaf main, all snapping off right in front of the rear eye.

Things that I know contributed to the breakage were the rust that thinned out the leaf right in that area right where the pad from the second-leaf rubbed, and the fact that I had reversed the main leaf to extend the wheelbase, putting the small bushing in the back, which is less able to absorb the shock-loads than the normally-rear large-bushing.

When my friend was getting rid of a set of 4" lift leaf-packs for the back of a Chevy K-10, I thought I hit gold: they were a few inches longer than the Waggy main-leafs (52", vs. ~48"), but I thought my longer front shackle would be able to accomodate that extra length. Plus, the eye of the spring was dipped, so that the leaf pointed at the center of the bushing rather than at the outer circumference.

Well, it turns out the longer shackle was not enough to make up for the extra length of the leaf. :(

But that just prodded me to fabricate new front shackle mounts off my existing front bumper. :)

I'll post pics when I get a chance to take them, but I took the truck out on the trail this past weekend, and the springs worked REALLY well. :thumbsup: I used the three longest leafs from the 4" Chevy pack, plus a thinner fourth leaf from a rear Waggy pack. I left the bushings loose on the bolts, but clamped the back-half of the pack in two places to make that half work more like a radius-arm and to diminish the chances of bending the leaf in the back.

Result: Still good flex, but no axle-wrap and good axle-location on the rocks. I have yet to test jamming my axle into rocks, but the design of these springs really should help minimize breakage.

I don't have any pics, but another member has some shots of it working in the rocks in her gallery:

http://picasaweb.google.com/MzOzzieTJ/FTRTheFarm/photo#5100565703789246274

and the following shots.

As for the rears, I used the two longest leafs from a J-20 pack, plus two long leafs from my old rear pack, with only one clamp to prevent the leafs from spreading. That jacked the rear up about 2"-3" but considering that the original Waggy main-leaf from a 5-leaf pack was going negative-arch just at static ride-height, I think this pack has just about the right rate.

Combined with the raised shacke-mount location for the front springs, however, it does give the truck a hot-rod rake, which actually improves my visibility on the trail. Looks kinda silly, but if it works, I'll keep it. :D

http://picasaweb.google.com/MzOzzieTJ/FTRTheFarm/photo#5100563324377361730

(sorry; can't link directly :( )

[Tad]

I'm liking the idea and can't wait for some closer pic's.
Did this move the axle forward any?

[Bob Barry]

I'm liking the idea and can't wait for some closer pic's.
Did this move the axle forward any?

Yes; it moved it forward about another 2", for a grand stretch of about 4" total, which does well at keeping the tire away from the firewall.

[imiceman44]

I've had a problem breaking my main-leafs on the trail; last four times out, I broke a main-leaf on my right-side three of those times (and the fourth was a downhill snowy trail, so little opportunity to break there). These were used Waggy 7-leaf mains, and one Cherokee 2-leaf main, all snapping off right in front of the rear eye.

Things that I know contributed to the breakage were the rust that thinned out the leaf right in that area right where the pad from the second-leaf rubbed, and the fact that I had reversed the main leaf to extend the wheelbase, putting the small bushing in the back, which is less able to absorb the shock-loads than the normally-rear large-bushing.

When my friend was getting rid of a set of 4" lift leaf-packs for the back of a Chevy K-10, I thought I hit gold: they were a few inches longer than the Waggy main-leafs (52", vs. ~48"), but I thought my longer front shackle would be able to accomodate that extra length. Plus, the eye of the spring was dipped, so that the leaf pointed at the center of the bushing rather than at the outer circumference.

Well, it turns out the longer shackle was not enough to make up for the extra length of the leaf. :(

But that just prodded me to fabricate new front shackle mounts off my existing front bumper. :)

I'll post pics when I get a chance to take them, but I took the truck out on the trail this past weekend, and the springs worked REALLY well. :thumbsup: I used the three longest leafs from the 4" Chevy pack, plus a thinner fourth leaf from a rear Waggy pack. I left the bushings loose on the bolts, but clamped the back-half of the pack in two places to make that half work more like a radius-arm and to diminish the chances of bending the leaf in the back.

Result: Still good flex, but no axle-wrap and good axle-location on the rocks. I have yet to test jamming my axle into rocks, but the design of these springs really should help minimize breakage.

I don't have any pics, but another member has some shots of it working in the rocks in her gallery:

http://picasaweb.google.com/MzOzzieTJ/FTRTheFarm/photo#5100565703789246274

and the following shots.

As for the rears, I used the two longest leafs from a J-20 pack, plus a third long leaf from my old rear pack, with only one clamp to prevent leafs spreading. That jacked the rear up about 2"-3" but considering that the original Waggy main-leaf from a 5-leaf pack was going negative-arch just at static ride-height, I think this pack has just about the right rate.

Combined with the raised shacke-mount location for the front springs, however, it does give the truck a hot-rod rake, which actually improves my visibility on the trail. Looks kinda silly, but if it works, I'll keep it. :D

http://picasaweb.google.com/MzOzzieTJ/FTRTheFarm/photo#5100563324377361730

(sorry; can't link directly :( )

I like the rake, I have a 1" difference on mine, when loaded with all my camping gear it sits flat, but empty it sits a little high.:D
I am not doing anything anytime soon but my plans for the waggy are 52" fronts and 63" rears from chevy trucks too.

[jepj2000]

Thats kinda a cool deal. Looking forward to seeing the detailed pics of the new setup you have.

Rankin

[Bob Barry]

OK, finally got some pictures.

Here is my front bumper with some shackles in the original position. This is what I started with:

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/shock13.jpg

Here is how I relocated my shackle-mount forward and upward; I fabricated an outer-plate that bolted to two existing bolts on the front bumper rail, and also the outer ear of the original front shackle mount (which I've welded to the frame for reinforcement; good idea to prevent these things from tearing off from trail-use):

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/52in_front01.jpg

The inner side of the shackle-mount is an angle-iron bracket that bolts to two other bumper mounting-bolts, and to which I added a small 5/16" rear bolt into the rear bumper support just to minimize the twisting force on the bracket (note: all bolts for these brackets are grade-8):

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/52in_front07.JPG

You can also see in the above picture how the outer bracket is tied into the original front shackle mount.

Below is a head-on shot of the bracket setup:

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/52in_front03.JPG

Here you can see how the eye of the Chevy spring is dipped, directing any rearward motion of the spring right at the center of the bushing. My original springs, when shoved backwards, would being to unwrap the spring from around the bushing, and generally snap about two inches forward of the eye. You can also see below how I clamped the rear halfs of the leaf-packs together to prevent any one leaf from trying to do the full job of locating the axle. It minimizes flex somewhat, but it's a necessary tradeoff.

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/52in_front05.JPG

The only drawback that I've found is interference between the swaybar and the drag-link. Solution: remove swaybar. :)

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/52in_front06.JPG

Here is a shot of the rear spring-packs I made up from two J-20 leafs and two thinner leafs from a Waggy pack. Sorry, the mud makes it hard to tell them apart:

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/j20_rearleaf01.JPG

But that's really it. I have as much flex from the front as with the softer Waggy springs, and the axle is much more controlled.

For those without a front bumper like mine, I suppose a shackle-mount could be bolted or welded to the front crossmember, somewhat like a shackle-reversal, but higher up and without the reversal part.

Let me know what you guys think. :)

[Tad]

Let me know what you guys think. :)

I like it a lot.

Unfortunatly I don't think it will work (correct me if I am thinking wrong please) for the full high-steering folks (me included, even though I have some 2.5" lift , 52" gm springs :( ).
Here's why I think that.
You do not show it in the pic's but my thinking is that when the axle moved forward the tierod also came forward under the pitman arm and draglink location.
It seems in a full high-steer setup the drag link will make contact with the tierod on the way down during compression. Mine is real close, maybe 3/4" before they crossover each other.

Does that sound correct?

[Bob Barry]

I like it a lot.

Unfortunatly I don't think it will work (correct me if I am thinking wrong please) for the full high-steering folks (me included, even though I have some 2.5" lift , 52" gm springs :( ).
Here's why I think that.
You do not show it in the pic's but my thinking is that when the axle moved forward the tierod also came forward under the pitman arm and draglink location.
It seems in a full high-steer setup the drag link will make contact with the tierod on the way down during compression. Mine is real close, maybe 3/4" before they crossover each other.

Does that sound correct?

I saw that possibility; I think the drag-link might interfere with the axle moved that far forward. There could be a few solutions:

*Move the rear spring-eye mount backwards on the frame
*Use a shorter pitman-arm
*Use a TRE on the tie-rod with a taper for the TRE from the draglink to attach to (what they call "T"-steering in the baby-Jeep world)

I'll try to get a clear picture of the angle of the drag-link.

[Sambo]

man i have been kicking this idea for some time! my fellow wheelers talked me out of it cause my modifyed springs already flex really well!
but i am glad everything is working good tho!maybe you wont break those anytime soon...:thumbsup:

yeah a decent shot of the draglink and tierod would be nice;)

[Mikel]

Looking good! Did you take care of the 3/8" spring pad distance difference between the Dodge axle and your Cherokee?

[Bob Barry]

Looking good! Did you take care of the 3/8" spring pad distance difference between the Dodge axle and your Cherokee?

It's more like a half-inch difference.

I opened up the hole in the spring-pad for the head of the centering-pin using a die-grinder, and also ground the side of the spring-perch that is cast into the pumpkin, which probably totalled for a 1/4" of the width. The rest is just taken care of by bushing-deflection and the slight angle of the spring-shackles.

[Stuka]

Do you have full hydrolic steering then? If not, how did you adress the tie rod/drag link being so much farther forward.

EDIT: The close up photos just loaded for me, so I guess having the cross over steering makes it a non-issue?

[Bob Barry]

Here are some pics of the drag-link; despite the relocated axle, it is not at a severe angle, or even much of a noticeable angle, when the steering is centered. It's kinda hard to tell from the angles on these shots, but it is ALMOST parallel to the existing tie-rod. A shorter pitman-arm would definitely make it parallel, and allow a full high-steer setup, as the aftermarket arms could locate the tie-rod behind the connecting-point for the drag-link. Or, you could use the T-linkage setup with 1-ton TRE's. In a REAL extreme setup, you could bump the wheelbase forward another ten inches, use a van steering-box, and mount the steering arm pointed forward :)

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/drag_link01.JPG

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/drag_link02.JPG

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/drag_link03.JPG

http://drbob.tqhosting.com/cherokee/drag_link04.JPG

[Tad]

Thanks Bob,
It makes sense there is a difference between cross-over and full high-steering.
With the DPA and 2" front lift springs I am almost perfectly paralell.
http://members.cox.net/pmountsoa/Day2/15liftminus2pitman.JPG
If it comes forward for me much at all I am in trouble.
I had planned on moving my rear hangers back to accommodate the R44044's I have (us older rigs have even shorter springs up front).
I've pondered moving the steering box as I would love my front axle to move forward since moving the rear back was such a great handling improvement, but that looks to be a good deal more work than I have time for right now.
I'll have to think about this a bit more.
Maybe put the full high-steer stuff back on the J2K and go cross-over on the wag.

It surely does look great on your end.