FSJ Road-Trip from ****(long post)

[grand_wag_85]

Coworker of mine just got a '78 waggy from a relative out in Moab, UT so I tagged along with the Cherokee. Started out as a great trip(Cherokee ran GREAT the whole way out and back:D) but after we picked the waggy up it developed a water leak at the pump so we stopped every 25 miles to fill it. Farther down the road the waggy started to backfire, stall and die. When it did this it usually took awhile to get going again, eventually as we were trying to get it going it ended up puking the cat guts out and ran great...for awhile. Ended up losing the water pump gasket completely and just about overheated it so we decided to stop for the night. In the morning we topped off the water in the waggy, fired it up and it ran for about 10 seconds before it started to act like it was getting choked out at which point it died and we heard this raspy clanking noise. We tried to get the waggy going again thinking it was either flooded or not getting a spark and it wasn't flooded out and was getting a good spark but not running. Put in new plugs and still nothing:mad: so we ended up towing it up here w/the Cherokee.

Turns out the waggy was a quart or 2 low on oil but that should stop it from running. It's getting fuel, spark and the dizzy turns while the motor cranks so what could be wrong with this one? I put in a new coil but that didn't seem to help. I could hear a faint sputter as we were cranking it over and we tried turning the cap but no luck. We could hear some knocking as we cranked it over but we associated this with the low oil level at the time.


Any ideas?

And I thought I had bad luck:hide:

[jeepmandan]

Sounds like the way I've heard some act that have shredded distributor/cam gears. I had one that turned partially and would fire every once in awhile and make that little sputter.
Does the rotor turn the whole time?

Worst case scenario, but a thought. Low oil level would contribute to deteriorating gears.

[janie]

Would a compression check help rule a few things out/in?

[grand_wag_85]

The rotor still spins when you crank the motor over and it feels nice and tight when you try and twist it by hand except for the play the vacuum advance puts in there. A compression check might help, will have to check that. Somebody also suggested that this might be either the timing chain or jumped timing BUT the cap can spin almost all the way arround, I'd think that I could get a bit more than just a random sputter.:huh:

[Gambler68]

probably cooked the engine trying to run it with a blown water pump.

Glad to hear YOURS made it there and back :eek: :D

[fulsizjeep]

78 was first year for Duraspark ignition. Maybe a longshot, but swap the ignition module in from your 79 and see if that might be it before you get too busy with engine internals. (or put the 78 module on yours and see if it starts, either way)

[grand_wag_85]

probably cooked the engine trying to run it with a blown water pump.

Glad to hear YOURS made it there and back :eek: :D

Ran fine after it quasi-overheated just started up and died the next day.

[grand_wag_85]

78 was first year for Duraspark ignition. Maybe a longshot, but swap the ignition module in from your 79 and see if that might be it before you get too busy with engine internals. (or put the 78 module on yours and see if it starts, either way)

We hard wired the ignition coil straight to the battery and still nothing.

[fulsizjeep]

Not the coil, the square ignition module on the drivers side fender well...

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar to the problem Ryan had with his ignition before Ouray but my memory is not always reliable.

[drlocke]

My 327 did the same thing just minutes before it jumped time way off and bent the valves and pushrods. It would try to kick over but wouldn't run. Then it finally started and was running poorly for a few minutes before coming to a grinding, clattering halt.

Good idea to check the sprockets and chain.

[Gambler68]

Not the coil, the square ignition module on the drivers side fender well...

This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar to the problem Ryan had with his ignition before Ouray but my memory is not always reliable.

It would start and not stay running because the NSS was shot. Jumpered that and everything was kosher as a pickle after that. And the NSS was shot because I was an idiot and buggered up the steering column :P Engine never knocked or clattered though, it was purely an ignition problem on mine.

My opinion..you got the engine so hot that like flinty sez, you prolly melted your ignition module on the drivers side fender. :cool:

if the wag sat for a long time and y'all took it on a long RT right off the bat..who knows, fragged bearings in there, shorn dizzy gear from blocked oil passages/low oil pressure, could be anything.

[fulsizjeep]

My 327 did the same thing just minutes before it jumped time way off and bent the valves and pushrods. It would try to kick over but wouldn't run. Then it finally started and was running poorly for a few minutes before coming to a grinding, clattering halt.

Good idea to check the sprockets and chain.

oohh yyeeaahh, lots of AMC 304, 360 and 401s had those loverly nylon tooth timing gears too...

[grand_wag_85]

Not the coil, the square ignition module on the drivers side fender well...


Still nothing with the swap, although my Cherk won't start w/the Waggy module........If the coil is wired straight to the battery doesn't that bypass the module anyway?

[fulsizjeep]

OK

this should tell you something:
my Cherk won't start w/the Waggy module

ummmm, NO on the bypass question...

[Ralph Rogers]

Put you finger in the number one sprak plug hole. When your finger gets blown out, what cylinder is the rotor pointing at? Crank it again until it blows out again. Now what cylider is it pointing at? Should be cyl #1 on one of those TDC's.
If it ain't, probably like others have said - chain time.
Ralph

[grand_wag_85]

So what's involved in swapping the timing chain and gears? Does the housing have to be swapped too? #1TDC is way off.

[Ralph Rogers]

Now that you've done that (that was a quick dirty test)- set the timing mark at TDC and see if the rotor points to #1 on dist. Rotate crank one turn to TDC again and see if it points to #1. One of those times it should. If it is still "way" off. (need to define "way" off). it's probably the chain. Once you have it TDC on #1 firing (if you can), pull the dist and look at the gear to make sure it isn't mucked up causing the problem. If the dist gear is OK - it's time to go to work. Gotta replace them pump anyway, right?
You can usually reuse the cover, but get a new oil pump while you are in there.

Timing chain replacement isn't that hard. Do a search here for it and read up on it. Then ask specifics to the forum. Plenty of folks here who have done this too.
Any of them nice CFSJA folks nearby?
Ralph

[grand_wag_85]

I don't know how far way off is, he just told me that it was. Will have to see just how bad it is after work.

Oil pressure was great on the aftermarket mech gauge the whole time the '78 was running.

On a side note, thanks for all the help guys!

[JeepBountyHunter]

What about the ignition module, did you put the one from your Cherokee in the Waggy..do that first..see what happens...

[grand_wag_85]

What about the ignition module, did you put the one from your Cherokee in the Waggy..do that first..see what happens...

Yes, still not starting

[fulsizjeep]

I hate to say it Sean, but I don't think we are getting enough info on this to help. You say you changed the hot wire to the coil. There are probably other things as well. You say the ignition module from the Waggy will not start your Cherokee. <ding-ding-ding> Maybe your module will not start the Waggy maybe because of other things you have tried to resolve the problem but made it worse somehow? I dunno man, I am cornfused... :cool:

[grand_wag_85]

When I said that about the hot wire to the ignition coil we wired in a hot lead from the battery but did not disconnect it from the module. He's gonna get a new IGN module and go from there. Even if that's not the problem it's got the factory AMC stickered IGN module so it's bound to die sooner or later.

On a side note, my Cherk won't start with my own module anymore and we had that extra hot lead to the coil discoed at the time.:banghead: Gotta love these things:alc:

[Ralph Rogers]

I didn't get the fact that the module worked in his and not the troubled rig, and visa-versa. :p I just saw he had good spark.
If the new mod doesn't fix the prob, look at timing too.
I remember those module probs from last month myself.:rolleyes:
Ralph

[DieselSJ]

My vote goes for timing chain. Had that nylon gear come apart in an old Ford I used to own. Timing kept jumping - it would run like crap, I'd set the timing, it would run good, then the timing would jump again. Started it one day, hit the gas and it just sputtered and died and would not restart. It had finally jumped too far.

[grand_wag_85]

Looks to be the timing as a brand new IGN module would not start the wagoneer, started the Cherokee tho.

I'll keep ya'll posted, thanks for the help!