PTO vs. electric

[dweezle]

I prefere PTOs winches to electic b/c they're more powerful and more dependable than the electric(I think). I may be wrong about this, and my brother swears by an electric winch. what do you guys think on this issue? I acctualy been thinkin about converting my dana 20 to PTO. is this possible? do they make kits for these or do I have to canabalize one that came with it? how hard is it? is it worth it?
sorry about the number of Qs http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

[scotty]

the biggest disadvantage of a pto is that your engine must be runing. in a pinch,you can get your pto to work (with a manual tranny) by removing the plugs and cranking the engine with the starter.like any electric winch,this will work as long as the batteries hold out. the pto seems to me to be more reliable.its all mechanical-you have a driveshaft spinnig a sprocket.unless some part of it breaks,it will work.but an electric winch you rely on a complex electric motor and solenoids that can quit working if water penetraits them.

im about to install a spicer 18 xfer and pto,and a BIG winch from a tow truck. the spicer 18 xfer pto works by sliding a coupler onto the input geat on the back of the tranny,so you can effectivley run the winch in any forward or reverse gear on the tranny. im hoping the pto,with the 6.39 first of the t18 tranny will have ALOT more reliable pulling power for the fraction of the cost of the biggest,best electric winch.

having said that,id really like to have both.ill put my pto sort of midship,and hopefully be able to run the cable out forwards or backwards. id also like to have an electric winch on the front bumper,just for those "engnie is dead" type of emergencies.

the dana 20 pto is hard to come by. it basically bolts on inplace of the bottom oil pan,and meshes a gear with one of the gears in the xfer.i dont know of any way to make your own pto for a 20.this,and the low range,is why im using an 18 instead of a 20,you may want to consider an 18 swap if you want a pto.

what transmission are you using? some manual trannies have a PTO option as well,so yuo might also look into that.

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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO swap very soon
searching for offset QT rear and PTO winch

[dweezle]

I have a TH400 tranny. so it sounds like it might be a bugger to put a PTO on a dana 20? does anywhere sell these or do I have to find one? furthermore it was said that I might be better of with an 18? Are there any advantages or disivantages to this besides the availibility of PTOs. how complicated is a swap-over?
thanks

[ClarkGriswald]

Damm Scotty.. Ive been researching the last few days. as to what I could do with the front and rear offset axles i have... .. the D18 is the best option as far as I can see when it comes to the offset setup like that... the QT is the only other one Ive found and its chaindrive..

Ive found a lot of nice upgrades for the D18 too..

Its eating me up hahahah.. If I had even the smallest money. I would be dangerous haahhah

Ya know,,.. in retrospect.. (this was 5 min after the last post..) It was pretty easy coming up with those axles.. If you want em.. you can have em.. for whatever it takes me to get em too ya.. (If you need them.. . Since your doin this D18 thing.. You could have these offset D44's...)0{even though you've done all that work to your rear 20 already.. ..

All they are doin to me is putting bad idea's in my head that I cant afford hahahah.. They have 3.54's in em.. they are complete.. I even saved all the WT steering linkage on the front.. (except the "tierod end" that is on the end of the draglink that hooks to the steering arm[torched it in half})

[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited December 26, 2000).]

[scotty]

thats mighty nice of ya clark- how far are ya from dayton,ohio?maybe i could come up and get em some time.im in no big hurry,are ya sure you dont want somethin for em?maybe i could at least trade ya somethin...



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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO swap very soon
searching for offset QT rear and PTO winch

[scotty]

oh yeah-dweezle,youll have to locate a dana 20 pto.check salvage yards,local sale papers,and Ebay.im sure one will pop up on there someday. as far as i know,no one makes any knid of aftermarket reproduction of the 20 pto,and the old ones are pretty scarce.

the 18 ptos are no longer made either,but at least theyre still pretty common.advantages of the 18 are the ability to use an over drive or pto(now adapters are even available to use both),lower low range(2.46 vs 2.03),and a twin stick shifter.you can access 2wd low range by removing an interlock pill.

there are several versions of the 18.one is a direct swap,but it was not very common,and youll only find it on later models(prolly late 60s),and not sure what trannies.this version has the same 4 inch index bore.all others have a 3 inch bore. what you will have to do is locate a 53 or later 18 with a 1 1/4 intermediate shaft,and swap all of its innards into a 20 case with the 4 inch hole.now you have created a d18 that will swap with your existing d20.im not sure how it works on the th400.does the input gear for your d20 have 6 internal splines? if so you can swap on the d18 input gear,swap the inards into a large hole dana 20 case,and bolt it to your factory th400/20 adapter.

the input gear must match the 18,so make sure that you get that,too,when you get the xfer.also make sure you are getting the 1 1/4 intermediate shaft version,before handing over any non refundable cash.the shaft is mesureable from the outside,without case dissassembly.

any other ques?

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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO swap very soon
searching for offset QT rear and PTO winch

[This message has been edited by scotty (edited December 26, 2000).]

[ClarkGriswald]

Scotty, your goin for the big heavy duty right?? .. your using the D18 cause of the offset.. and cause of the options right?? Thats why I say just have these axles.. matching D44s alreay offset to the pass side. ..
Im in Michigan.. if you look on the map at kalamazoo.. that gets you in the ballpark of where im at.. (not quite but in the ballbark)
I need to pull the rims off em. (cause im gonna sandblast em. and keep em around, i got 5 steel wagonwheels that fit my 6 lug d44's..)

(heavy duty , meaning.. Steel case, geardrive.. offset for your one side clearance idea. possible PTO use.)..
You can just have em man, all in good FSJ karma....

[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited December 26, 2000).]

[scotty]

here is an Ebay link to a complete ramsey winch set up,with the PTO,for an 18 xfer. there are at least 2 other types of ptos available for the 18 .
http://cgi.ebay.icq.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=530146427&r=0&t=0 (http://cgi.ebay.icq.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=530146427&r=0&t=0)

here is a link showing the ptos for the 10,18,and trannies:
http://www.jeeptech.com/winch/
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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO swap very soon
searching for offset QT rear and PTO winch

[This message has been edited by scotty (edited December 27, 2000).]

[dweezle]

just how hard is it to find one of these D20 PTOs, have you ever seen one or have you just heard of them? I wondering b/c it sounds like a real bugger to swap over to a D18 and not being real maitanince experianced I'd rather pass it up for now.
thanks

[scotty]

never actually seen one in real life,just pics. a guy i know claims to have one,but he wants $300 for it,and has never been able to actually produce it for me.i gave $150 for my xfer and PTO! ill ask him about it again.
its really not such a big deal to swap the guts from 1 case to another,if you cange your mind on that,let me know,i can give you some pointers. good luck with your search and your project.

[UnkleMunky]

This may be a dumb thought, but one idea that popped into my head on this issue is an "accessory pump" that can run hydraulics.

I've seen these types of units on trucks(including a '72 or so J-truck) for plow units. It runs off a belt on the engine(mounts like a power steering pump or so) and then you run the power OFF the pump. Essentially it's an add-on unit, and you'd definitely have to make sure it fit and would work, but "could" this type of thing be rigged up for a winch as well?

It's just a thought, but it crossed my mind....would definitely leave your tranny/t-case alone, but does require truck running.

I'd like this type of unit for a plow myself, but I know they're not common either. Anyway...does anybody know if "that" type of pump would work for a winch too?

Thanks for any input...it's just a thought as I noted, but maybe another option.....

Take care...
Michael
'78 J10/ '76 J10

[desert_freak]

I have seen a hydralic powered winch like the one UNKLEMUNKY described at a Dick Cepek store in SoCal. They even had a video running if I remember right showing it in action. I don't remeber to much about it other than thinking that it seemed to be a much better choice than an electric one (except when the vehicle is dead of course).

Give Dick Cepek and see if I on track or having a memory glitch.



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[UnkleMunky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by desert_freak:
I have seen a hydraulic powered winch like the one UNKLEMUNKY described at a Dick Cepek store in SoCal. They even had a video running if I remember right showing it in action. I don't remeber to much about it other than thinking that it seemed to be a much better choice than an electric one (except when the vehicle is dead of course).

Give Dick Cepek and see if I on track or having a memory glitch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did a little checking and was rather surprised at what I found:
http://www.milemarker.com/index.html

Check out good 'ol MileMarker(yes, same ones as the QT part time kit!) for some hydraulic winches....even the US Army has converted to hydraulic. Runs off the Power Steering unit, so only minor modifcation! PLUS.....less drain on battery, AND...no modification to driveline via PTO!

Not sure on price, but factor in all the other costs for a PTO changeover or the hassles of electric(yuk!), and who knows...maybe these are darn good units!

NOW....here's an odd idea for ya'll: Wouldn't it be nice to have a modified "hydraulic" unit up front that one could then setup to operate a multitude of accessories...say a "snowplow", "snowblower", "winch", "lift forks(Yeh, baby!)", and who knows what else from a single unit....hmmm....I'm dreaming...heck, might as well setup so you can run some other things too, but those all off one power unit would be ultra cool....can it be done???

If someone's willing to pay the cost, I'd be willing to use my '76 J10 as a guinea pig for this!!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

But, anyway...check Milemarker out and maybe you've got a whole 'nother idea to consider for a winch!

Enjoy

Michael
'78 J10 / '76 J10(guinea pig...who you callin' a guinea pig???)