i've had it!!

[AlsChopShop]

yesterday is the last time the cherokee will be powered buy the stooopid AMC!!

the destruction starts today. where's my scalpel? :sawzall: :bluelaugh:

Al

[jeeping1974]

what happened?

[YellowJeep]

WOOHOO!!! Let's see some pics of your scalpel work! BTW...scrap metal is pretty high right now, that 360 could actually fetch you a few $$s! :thumbsup:

Let me know if you have questions with the TBI stuff. I might be able to help you out!

[AlsChopShop]

what happened? its never run well, and the last straw was the fact that it was running ok before i tore the front axle down and now it runs worse than ever. :banghead: also the pint of dex it pukes out every few days even if it hasn't moved, :huh: that was starting to get to me too. its days of pissing me off are over! :bluelaugh:

my buddy is going to buy the 360 from me, $200! :thumbsup:

Al

[mdill]

its never run well, and the last straw was the fact that it was running ok before i tore the front axle down and now it runs worse than ever. :banghead: also the pint of dex it pukes out every few days even if it hasn't moved, :huh: that was starting to get to me too. its days of pissing me off are over! :bluelaugh:

my buddy is going to buy the 360 from me, $200! :thumbsup:

Al

Is your buddy the same guy who's been radomly pulling a plug wire or two?
or the one who's who's been putting pin holes in your vacumn lines ?
:p

Mike D.

[jeeping1974]

Is your buddy the same guy who's been radomly pulling a plug wire or two?
or the one who's who's been putting pin holes in your vacumn lines ?
:p

Mike D.

:lol:

[Stuka]

No offense or anything, but if you cannot get the AMC to run well, how are you going to get any other engine to run well? Tuning is equal across just about any engine make.

[bigblack'74]

yesterday is the last time the cherokee will be powered buy the stooopid AMC!!

the destruction starts today. where's my scalpel? :sawzall: :bluelaugh:

Al

I agree, I got so sick and tired of years and years on unrelaible junk amc motors...I blew up new ones and old one alike :)

[incommando]

If ya gotta swap, be different & try to swap something unusual. To me, the guy with an SBC powered FSJ shoulda just bought a blazer. .:p

But seriously, with the exception of a propensity for oil leaks, what are the driveability issues of an AMC V8 versus the others of the same vintage? You can't compare engines from 20 years apart and expect the same results. Might it be cheaper to "modernize" what you have & service it to original or better specs than to swap it?

[Blue & Gray]

No offense or anything, but if you cannot get the AMC to run well, how are you going to get any other engine to run well? Tuning is equal across just about any engine make.




I second this..... easy to condemn and replace and bring on more problems, headaches and nightmares than you currently have. So many AMC V8's I have befriended I have found to be in poor running order from lack of simple understanding of basic engine operating principles at any level. Working on a carb'd 350, 360,318,305, 351 or 302 ....it is the same, your knuckle bleeds the same when you skin it, your wallet flops out on the parts counter as often, it is 99 % mental I think, if you hate it then you will hate working on it and nothing will ever be right no matter what. A "replace the entire drivetrain cause it's junk" notion is much more intense an execution than a "find the motor's ailments and right them" notion. Ultimately it is your Jeep, your canvas to paint and enjoy, between the fenders there is a V8 allready bolted up, plumbed in and wired that has no doubt seen some miles that are showing...... it would be the same if it were a K5 or a Bronco of similar vintage, if you prefer the brand X power plant than raise the brand x hood, in the end it's all the same when the blood runs 'tween the knuckles.

[ohioj20]

What are you putting in it? An International Travelall 400?? :rolleyes:

[710 Burner]

Wouldn't that be a 401?

[YellowJeep]

I second this..... easy to condemn and replace and bring on more problems, headaches and nightmares than you currently have.
I have to disagree a little with you on this. There is more skill required to do an engine swap then to getting an engine to "run right". You need to be able to do tuning, understand EFI including editing the ECM, wiring, fabricating and be creative. Most of the people who do engine swaps don't do them because they love brand X motors or hate AMC motors, but more commonly decide...why waste my time on fixing this existing drivetrain (it's too far gone etc) or want something that wasn't offered from the factory. Al's motor was a slug and had various issues, had a slipping trans and a cracked x-case. Why not kill 3 birds with one stone, and get fuel injection, a manual trans (which he wanted), and parts availability at any parts store in the country. Personally, I wanted to build something no one else has, while getting the reliability of a new vehicle with fuel injection and all the niceities including better fuel mileage and nearly double the power of a stock 360. Honestly, if I was a blazer guy or a bronco guy (definetly NOT either of them), I'd be doing the same thing. Before getting an FSJ, I was very seriously considering a Ramcharger or PowerWagon build with a moderm hemi motor and OD trans.

I will agree with you that wrenchin is wrenchin and it's all the same when you bust a knuckle. An FSJ is definetly a canvas and I'm Picaso on LSD!

[Lindel]

go big, or stay home!! 502 dinosaur!! :thumbsup:

[incommando]

go big, or stay home!! 502 dinosaur!! :thumbsup:

Heck ya! Break out the credit card, sell momma's car, mortgage the dog, and get the ramjet 502. That engine even looks good.

[Stuka]

I have to disagree a little with you on this. There is more skill required to do an engine swap then to getting an engine to "run right". You need to be able to do tuning, understand EFI including editing the ECM, wiring, fabricating and be creative. Most of the people who do engine swaps don't do them because they love brand X motors or hate AMC motors, but more commonly decide...why waste my time on fixing this existing drivetrain (it's too far gone etc) or want something that wasn't offered from the factory. Al's motor was a slug and had various issues, had a slipping trans and a cracked x-case. Why not kill 3 birds with one stone, and get fuel injection, a manual trans (which he wanted), and parts availability at any parts store in the country. Personally, I wanted to build something no one else has, while getting the reliability of a new vehicle with fuel injection and all the niceities including better fuel mileage and nearly double the power of a stock 360. Honestly, if I was a blazer guy or a bronco guy (definetly NOT either of them), I'd be doing the same thing. Before getting an FSJ, I was very seriously considering a Ramcharger or PowerWagon build with a moderm hemi motor and OD trans.

I will agree with you that wrenchin is wrenchin and it's all the same when you bust a knuckle. An FSJ is definetly a canvas and I'm Picaso on LSD!

I understand if everything is just worn out. But thats no reason to bad mouth a given engine/trans/t-case. I see no point in saying brand X sucks because itbroke downon me, so I am replacing it all with Brand Y!!

He should get a fewmpg better, although my cherokee used to do 13-14mpg pretty consistantly on the HWY with a 360 and 4v carb. EFI will get you to about 15-15.5. As for double thepower, that depends on the year of the 360. Mine came with 195 stock with al the smog crap on it. I doubt the engine he is putting in came with 400. 360's are very easy to get power out of once you tune them up away from the smog standards. Not that I am saying its not worth going EFI, just that the arguments for EFI is mostly just no need to retune (carb), slightly better gas milage, and the best thing, it will run at any angle.

[dngrs1]

I second this..... easy to condemn and replace and bring on more problems, headaches and nightmares than you currently have. So many AMC V8's I have befriended I have found to be in poor running order from lack of simple understanding of basic engine operating principles at any level. Working on a carb'd 350, 360,318,305, 351 or 302 ....it is the same, your knuckle bleeds the same when you skin it, your wallet flops out on the parts counter as often, it is 99 % mental I think, if you hate it then you will hate working on it and nothing will ever be right no matter what. A "replace the entire drivetrain cause it's junk" notion is much more intense an execution than a "find the motor's ailments and right them" notion. Ultimately it is your Jeep, your canvas to paint and enjoy, between the fenders there is a V8 allready bolted up, plumbed in and wired that has no doubt seen some miles that are showing...... it would be the same if it were a K5 or a Bronco of similar vintage, if you prefer the brand X power plant than raise the brand x hood, in the end it's all the same when the blood runs 'tween the knuckles.

Obviously, he's never worked on a Honda.

[YellowJeep]

I understand if everything is just worn out. But thats no reason to bad mouth a given engine/trans/t-case. I see no point in saying brand X sucks because itbroke downon me, so I am replacing it all with Brand Y!!

He should get a fewmpg better, although my cherokee used to do 13-14mpg pretty consistantly on the HWY with a 360 and 4v carb. EFI will get you to about 15-15.5. As for double thepower, that depends on the year of the 360. Mine came with 195 stock with al the smog crap on it. I doubt the engine he is putting in came with 400. 360's are very easy to get power out of once you tune them up away from the smog standards. Not that I am saying its not worth going EFI, just that the arguments for EFI is mostly just no need to retune (carb), slightly better gas milage, and the best thing, it will run at any angle.

People bad mouth stuff that has agravated them all the time. Is it right? Probably just ill placed anger. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I still ask, if brand G, A, and F are all equal, why is there so much aftermarket support for brand "G" and their engines are used in everything from boats to motorcycles to hotrods and even Jeeps? Is a huge section of the automotive hoby wrong or perhaps did they use that motor for a real valid reason?

Personally, I don't care what anyone runs. You can run an 8HP briggs and stratton if you like! My only hang-up...I have no respect for people who don't work on their own stuff, or go out an polish the paint and fancy themselves an expert (not saying anyone here does that, but I'm sure everyone knows someone like that).

And the double the horsepower statement was referring to my situation. I'm replacing my 140hp stock 360 with a 5.3LSx that is rated at 2x the horepower. Al's TBI isn't going to be much over 160 I would guess. My TBI in my wrangler isn't a powerhouse, but sure is reliable!

[fulsizjeep]

If you are thinking big, may as well go elephant big. 562 big. :whistle:
http://www.hotautoweb.com/images19/Img_2513.jpg

[incommando]

NOW YOU EXPECT ME TO KEEP 2 4V'S IN TUNE??????? lol

Just for the sake o' argument, assume that cheap and common does not automatically equal best. Waaaaaaaaaaaay back Chevy was smart enough to assist aftermarket suppliers in making parts while other brands did not. They tried to hoard the speed goodies in-house. This had a snowball effect for the SBC. Also, in most parts of the country (and world) they have been the best seller, making donor crap easy to get.

Is their design better? Can't say that. Buick makes more power with less weight, for example. Buicks are just more pricey to run as, being a near luxury car with a higher price than a plain-jane chevy, there were fewer sold. Longevity? Nope. The skirted block designs ( crank nestled in the block) like the b/rb mopars are much better there, and "blowing up" is not catastrophic with block breakage, etc... as the design prevents crank deflection. Size? There are physically smaller V8's like the windsor line to enable easier swapping. And the biggee: Cost per HP. They do not win this one despite the hype. Arguably the 440 mopar wins here. It is cheap to get 500 hp/550# using stock heads, crank, block, etc. I know that this also makes a 500" caddy a great choice, but you run up against that scarcity thing again. You are not going to get those #'s out of a SBC without going to aftermarket sources for major components. Assuming you have to buy the carb/rings/gaskets anyway, a set of $300 pistons, a $200 intake, a $150 cam/lifter set and $200 worth of head porting gets you 500 hp in a drivable package with a 440. I'll bet that fans of other motors can post up similar info for their favorites. You are not going to get those kind of numbers for that little $$ out of an SBC w/o nitrous, which is pretty worthless in our uses.

In the top classes in the NHRA, the SBC does not appear at all. Really, the BBC is pretty scarce. The top fuel engines are based on the mopar hemi. a/stock & a/stock/auto are dominated by mopar, with mopar and buick winning most of the other top s & s/a classes. Pro stock GM's run an aftermarket creation most closely resembling an olds V8.

There is nothing wrong with a SBC, although I get a chuckle out of people who swear that modern V8 GM engines are SBC's when they really share nothing but a v-configuration. But I don't use "cheap" and "common" as my main criteria in choosing most things in life, and that includes engines. Aren't those the reasons you hear most often when people say they swapped to an SBC?

[YellowJeep]

All good points! 562 between the fenders of an FSJ!! That would be a sight!

There is nothing wrong with a SBC, although I get a chuckle out of people who swear that modern V8 GM engines are SBC's when they really share nothing but a v-configuration. But I don't use "cheap" and "common" as my main criteria in choosing most things in life, and that includes engines. Aren't those the reasons you hear most often when people say they swapped to an SBC?

Absolutely right. The only thing in common with a Gen III/IV motor and what is typically called a SBC is they both use oil and gas and are water cooled. Gen III/Gen IV motors will be common and cheap in short time and you'll see them everywhere too. Skirted block, 4 bolt mains that are also cross bolted through the block, roller cam, roller rockers and fantastic flowing aluminum heads all from factory is hard to pass up and I'm a die hard Mopar guy!!! In fact, I volunteer to safely dispose of all Gen III/Gen IV motors and parts that people here want to get rid of free of charge! :thumbsup:

[JeepinPete]

Heck, Gen III V8s are already plentiful and cheap, so long as you look at the truck engines. Less than $1k for a complete low mileage 5.3l, with all the accessories (alt, ps pump, ac compressor), wiring harness and computer. The wiring on these is really very simple. It only takes a half dozen wires to hook it up and have it run (without buying a new/reworked harness). The ECM needs to be reprogrammed to removed the theft prevention stuff, but that costs all of $50 and a weeks time to ship it out and receive it back. The Gen III/IV is simply superior to anything that preceded it. Yes, other engines can make big power, but trade off reliability and fuel economy to do it. The Gen III combines power, efficiency, light weight, and durability at a reasonable cost.

And ya, I am a little bit biased :lol:

And a last minute edit. My opinion pertains to gas engines. DieselSJ's 6.5 sound like a sweet setup...

[Cherokee77]

I realize this is a rather old post. However, I am interested in the steps to take to get 13-14mpg out of a 360 4 barrel.

[Gambler68]

I realize this is a rather old post. However, I am interested in the steps to take to get 13-14mpg out of a 360 4 barrel.

drive downhill.

both ways.

:D

[AlsChopShop]

wow guys, i was so busy tearing out that amc with my bare teeth that that i forgot about this thread!

i know half you guys don't agree with what i'm doing, but i like it anyway! sure there are AMC purists, but i'm a chevy guy and i like the tbi sbc's. and no that isn't the only reason for doing it... that was just what to pick. the EFI will be worth it alone. YellowJeep can see the light too! thanks bud for goin to bat for me, couln't have said that better myself! ;)

when it all comes down to it, maybe i'm doin it just because i'm a little crazy. ok, maybe a lot crazy. :D

the trans dissapeared last night, donated it to a friend of a friend with a wag that the trans bummed out at the coast on him. i think i sold it to him for a 'you owe me one'. but the couple of knuckleheads that pulled the trans unloaded my new 14b ff out of the back of the truck for me, so i'm happy. motor should be sold in a few days too, and now i have more than plenty room in the shop to start putting the sbc/465/205 together. woo-hoo!

Al

[YellowJeep]

Hey, since I went to bat for you, I don't spose I can talk you out of some parts off that broken quadratrac? When pulling mine out of the Cherokee, I twisted off the nut that holds the shift lever on. So, whatever that part is, if you have it, I throw you a few $$ for it. Can get a pic of what I'm talking about. (Us GM engine fans have to stick together or we might get mobbed!)

As for GenIII/IV stuff being cheap, it's getting there but people still seem think it's late model and want $$ for it...at least around here. At the swap meet this year, I scored 2 5.3l complete motors, minus some accesories, 2 harnesses, all the coils, intake, sensors, TBs, injectors, sensors and 1 ECM for $500 for the whole lot. I think that qualifies as cheap but it took me plenty of looking for find those.

[Stuka]

SBC's are swapped in a lot because they are common. Nothing more. There are a LOT of other V8's out there that are stronger, longer lasting, and easier to get power out of, but they all cost more. Its fine if somebody is on a budget, and wants a cheap reliable engine. The SBC fits that fine. Although a Ford 5.0 is arguably cheaper.

The ont hing that does get on my nerves is people go and spend 30k restoring some car, be it a roadster or whatever, then they drop in a dime a dozen, cheap SBC. It just boggles my mind as to why people would spend all this money on a car, then drop int he cheapest engine they can find. Especially with the Ford Model A's. The best Model A roadsters use Ford Flathead V8's (era correct engines), or some other engine which makes people go 'wow'. The SBC ones could all burn for all I care.

As for getting 13-14mpg in an FSJ with a 4v 360. Its not that hard. Most important thing is to get the engine running correctly. Properly tuned, etc. My configuration when I got that milage was with a 1975 Cherokee, stock suspension, 30" tires, 360 with an edelbrock intake and 1406 carb, single 2.5" exhaust (no cat, turbomuffler), T18 MANUAL trans (it would be hard to get that milage with an auto), and 3.54 gears. Oh, and all smog equipment was removed as '75 is exempt here in CA. It also depends how you drive it. If you drive it liek you stole it, expect 10mpg. If you drive it normally, you can go way up in milage.

[AlsChopShop]

chad, email me a pic of whatever you need at alschopshop@gmail.com and i'll send it out to you. we can't let stuka run us out just yet! :thumbsup:

stuka, i understand what you mean by sbcs being cheap and basic. and thats exactly what makes it work for me so well. its an added bonus that i already know those motors inside and out.

yeah, putting a mild sbc in an old ford like that can be wrong. but what is it they say? 'built ford tough with chevy stuff!' :D nah, classics need to stay true to themselves, no matter what the brand name. i agree with you there 100%.

Al

[Headhoncho]

yeah, putting a mild sbc in an old ford like that can be wrong. but what is it they say? 'built ford tough with chevy stuff!' :D nah, classics need to stay true to themselves, no matter what the brand name. i agree with you there 100%.

Al

Personally, I give credit to anyone who does an engine or total drivetrain swap no matter what the pieces used are (unless it's gm) :D . The only thing left that's Jeep on my truck is the frame and body. I happen to desire more power way back when and the 258 wasn't going to cut it. I have a preference for fords, had a 351c laying around and thought it would be an interesting swap. I now had the best of both worlds to me, Jeep j-10 with 351c engine. Most swaps are done for a specific reason and when you hear it, most folks are cool with that.
Now to be hypocritical, I too am a firm believer in not mixing and matching brands unless the factory did it. ANY early ford running a gm plant is a shame because the #1 reason for doing so is cost savings. On the other hand, how many gm street and drag cars are running a ford 9"? Same reason first is cost. It's getting too expensive to be a purist anymore. Just ask the Mopar guys.

JR

[YellowJeep]

Personally, I give credit to anyone who does an engine or total drivetrain swap no matter what the pieces used are (unless it's gm) :D . The only thing left that's Jeep on my truck is the frame and body. I happen to desire more power way back when and the 258 wasn't going to cut it. I have a preference for fords, had a 351c laying around and thought it would be an interesting swap. I now had the best of both worlds to me, Jeep j-10 with 351c engine. Most swaps are done for a specific reason and when you hear it, most folks are cool with that.
Now to be hypocritical, I too am a firm believer in not mixing and matching brands unless the factory did it. ANY early ford running a gm plant is a shame because the #1 reason for doing so is cost savings. On the other hand, how many gm street and drag cars are running a ford 9"? Same reason first is cost. It's getting too expensive to be a purist anymore. Just ask the Mopar guys.
JR

I'll agree that a old ford is coolest with a flathead. But I also wouldn't mind seeing a wicked LS6 with dual turbos in there either. However, I don't see how any AMC owner can be concerned with mixing brands...does't AMC stand for "Any Manufacturers Components"?:confused::confused: It's almost encouraged right from the factory! :D I really would have liked to have been in on some of the AMC meetings about deciding what parts to use, especailly the last few years. Designer 1 "Hey, have you heard of a company called Peugot? I think we can get some transmissions from them for the Wrangler" Designer 2 puts down the bong "Sounds good man!"

My wrangler is the same as your FSJ. Aftermarket seats, dash and gauges, Ford 8.8 rear end, dana front end, Chevy motor and trans, dana x-case the list goes on. The frame and body (except the flares) are Jeep parts at least!

[incommando]

I am not knocking SBC's, nor the new GM V8's. Heck, if you can handle the wiring/'puter stuff even the 4.8 is a dandy motor. It just isn't a SBC like so many call it.

And on swaps: YOU own your rig, do whatever the heck you want to it. That's the cool thing. I would never cut up a rare muscle car in decent condition, for example, but those that do so CAN because it is theirs.

BTW: I think that 4.6L in Cobra trim is a sweet looking motor. That would be cool in an old rod.

Cool street rod motor: 392 hemi.

[HectorHeadgear]

I'm extremely impressed this thread didn't turn into a flame war! Intelligent disagreement is rare on the net.

[Stuka]

Well a model A with a twin turbo LS6 would be pretty sweet. Because that requires a good deal of work to get working right. As for FSJ's, put whatever engine you want in. Everybody has a preference.

But when it comes to classic cars, I am a strong believing of them keeping the same make engine.