Extended wheelbase Wag?

[JohnnyJ]

I have another crazy idea for my Wag plans this Winter, please shoot any holes in it that you can. This one will take some fabrication, but it looks like I might be doing some anyway.

The basis for this idea is that the rear doors on a Wagoneer are the limiting factor for being able to trim the wheel wells. On the other hand, there is really not much behind the rear wheels.

The idea is to move the rear axle about 3" back, giving a longer wheelbase and more room for fender trimming. It would also help a little with the rear departure angle.

The wheel wells would have to be extended to the rear to accomodate the axle movement. If I were to extend the wheel-well back 6" and open it up a little, I could theoretically put tire like a 315-85R-15 Buckshot Mudder (36x9.1) on with maybe 4-6" of lift without it rubbing on the rear door section.

There are three ways I have thought about moving the axle back. I have a 75 which has the shorter rear springs vs. the 76&later rears which are about 4" longer.

1) Get the longer 76&later springs, convert forward mount ot fit, move rear shackle location and flip. Pro: Uses easily available 76&later 4" lift spring. Con: May only move axle rearward 2"

2) Get the longer 76&later springs, move front and rear hangers to get the 3" rearward movement. Pro: Same as 1. Con: More holes in the frame

3) Find longer springs, keep stock spring mount location, move rear shack back 6" and flip. Pro: Only 1 mounting location to move, less swiss cheese on frame. Con: Finding a non-custom (ie cheap) rear spring to my specs.

I would also need a longer rear driveshaft. I might be able to have the current lengthened for < $100.

What do you think?

[Bob Barry]

Hmmm, I wonder how far offset from the center of the springs the center-bolt holes are? If they are offset by 1.5" forward, then you could simply flip the springs front-to-back, and then invert the rear shackle to keep the driveline angles near stock.

That or longer springs from some other application combined with a new rear shackle mount would be the best bet.

I think extending the wheelbase is a fine way to get more clearance. Do realize, however, that you could trim a couple inches off the door, just fabricating a new back panel which doesn't have to look to pretty since it's not exposed.

[<Unknown Jeep>]

not a good idea... bodywork would kill you and might turn out ugly as..... A new SUV or worse. you are thinking of the outside... but you would have to mess with the fenderwells the body mounts, the fuel inlet, and make a new setup for the rear door area.
you would end up with a REAL wide area behind the door that would look funny. when you move the fender well back you would have to find a new place for the fuel fill area. the hose then would have no place to snake through to fill the tank. doing this mod would not work well at all...
best bet is to lift it so the tires would fit.
Body lift or spring type... or think about the one I am working on... a Wide track waggy...
see post in this Forum..."wide tack waggy"

Elf in Tampa tongue.gif

[JohnnyJ]

Bob, I want to leave the door unmolested, if possible. I was looking at Scotty's from your wild wags site, and I like the idea of big tires and low COG. The only thing I see with his is that he had to trim right up to the door. I hope that by moving the wheel back a little, I wouldn't have to trim right up to it.

Elf- I'm only talking about extending it by 6inches or so. It will still start where it does, it would just have some extra space on the end. At worst, it might get in the way of the fuel filler, but that is not the end of the world. I'm sure I can fab up something new, my hose is old anyway (it is still setup for leaded gas!)

I think I'll take a picture with some measurements tonight with my digital camera and use a photo editor to see how it looks.

[<Unknown Jeep>]

blink blink... OK... not sure that messing with the wheel base is still a good idea.. messing with a setup that was figured out by one of them thinkers with slide rules might lend to make a truck that showed bad road/off road manners. yes I too have had thoughts of doing something/ anything to get more tire clearance. BUT going nuts with a Sawzall like Superken... We love you ken.. is not my idea of doing it the right way. even with a light lift I still rub my 31's. I plan on putting a body lift on mine for a number of reasons... I can shoehorn in a larger tank in the aft area, I can get more room for tires, i can get rid of the OEM fuel tank making for better fuel station action, easy Exhaust route, and I can drive over my brothers BMW Z3 better....

Elf in Tampa :D

[JohnnyJ]

I do like the WT Wag idea, I've messed around with that idea for a long time. My biggest fear is that I'd rip them off on the first tight trail. Also, I'm not sure if it makes the wheel wheel that much larger to stuff really big tires (35 & larger).

Truthfully, messing with the wheelbase will probably have less effect on stability than changing the springs or adding a body lift to make it taller; which I have already done (2.5" spring, 3" body). J-Trucks had wheelbases up to 132", so I think that 112" wouldn't be too bad. It will likely make the turning circle larger, but putting the wheel further out towards the corners should not make it unstable.

A friend has 4" spring & 3" body and was rubbing his 33x12.5s on his uncut rear fenders on an 86 GW. Minor trimming would fix his problem, as would the WT, but he still can't run bigger tires without rubbing the rear doors.

I'm thinking that M-715 style front fender trimming and wheelbase extension and trimming with a 4" spring & 3" body will leave the doors intact and allow for some 36" tires and plenty-o-flex.

M-715s can fit 38" boggers in their wheel openings. I think I can do similar with my Waggy.

[Cecil14]

Looks like it will work to me. Personally I'd just get a J truck, then you'd already have all of this stuff done for you :D Another thing you could consider is using a 119" wheelbase J truck frame, would put you out a bit more than you're planning but it would already have the axles and driveline where it needs to be, you'd just have to mess with the body. You also have to look at the stuff above the body panel, what about the glass? and the roof? You should be able to take care of these issues, they just have to be addressed. You could also cut the frame somewhere in the middle and add in however much you want, this would require some serious welding, but is an option. Overall I don't see extending the wheelbase causing any serious problems, the only real difference between the wags and Js is the body.

Hope you liked it,
Anthony

[JohnnyJ]

Hopefully, someone will be interested in this thread other than me..

Here's the full picture with the modified rear wheel well:
http://members.home.net/jacobsj/ww_full.jpg

Check out the original picture at http://members.home.net/jacobsj/lsi_wag3.jpg

I also verified a couple of things on the Wag.

1) the gas tank filler is about 18 inches to the rear of the wheel well opening, and is above it; so that shouldn't be a problem.

2) Moving the cross member on the forward hanger further back would not be easy because the gas tank is in the way.

3) The springs are currently centered on the axle. The length from forward hanger to the shackle is 50.75". It is about 25" to the center of the axle from both the front and rear mounting positions.

4) There is 15" from the shackle to the back of the frame.

This makes me believe that it would be easiest to keep the front spring hanger in its stock location and use a longer spring (approx 56.75" eye-to-eye) to move the axle back 3".

Anybody?

[JohnnyJ]

Cecil - I would move the axle back about 3" and open up the wheel well about 6"; this would make my wheelbase about 112". No mods to the roof or windows would be done with just a wheelbase lengthening, it would still be 183.7" long.

I think the 119" J-truck frame would be too long and would require too much work to fit with the body.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Bob Barry]

Well, if you're happy with the proportions on that stretch, then go for it! You'll have plenty of clearance for the tall-n-skinnies.

I really like the look of opened-up rear-wheelwells, though. I did that to my truck (see link in sig below), and I think it makes it look a lot better proportioned with the wheelwell opened up to the door.

That's a personal preference, though, so take it for what it's worth.

The bodywork won't be tricky at all; you'll have to add a slice to the inner wheelwells, but that's just a cut-n-section job. You may also want to rework the shock-mounts; they'll be nearly vertical with the axle moved back.

Other than that, GO FOR IT! And keep us updated with pictures!

[JohnnyJ]

Here's a before & pseudo-after picture of my idea. I took a pic and modified with an editor to get the desired look.

This is it currently. I have 2.5" spring lift and a 3" body lift, the tires are 31x10.5 on 15x8 rims.

http://members.home.net/jacobsj/ww_before.jpg

This shows the axle moved back 3" and the wheelwell opened 6", all moving towards the back. This keeps the door area intact with no mods:

http://members.home.net/jacobsj/ww_after.jpg

I'll try and modify a full picture to see how it looks.

[River Beast]

I know you have seen this right???

Extended Waggy-Chero!!! :D

Before:

http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/wild/long_cherokee/long-cool-one-1.jpg


After:

http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/wild/long_cherokee/long-cool-one-4.jpg

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[<Unknown Jeep>]

FUNKY!!!!
Someone spent all kinds of time and Cash on that one... I wonder how it does off road?
Wonder if Ken W. could run that one up Rubicon?
Wonder why they did that to Two FSJ's?
Not for me.. mine is not parking lot friendly now.. how would that thing be...

Elf in Tampa :eek:

[JohnnyJ]

Yeah, doesn't Zack Heisey own that beast now?

That's a little more than I was looking for, I'm just looking to move the axle back a couple of inches so that I don't have to trim into the rear doors..

I saw something else that wet my appetite today. I was doing some research for longer springs (looking for ~ 56"), and ran across some posts about little toyota trucks running 1/2-ton chevy springs that are 63" long! They flex like crazy and ride real nice. Might have to think about that concept, maybe use a 3/4-ton spring 'cause they were complaining about sagging.

[<newbie>]

Atta boy, think outside the box... I like the idea, and the pic looks very cool! Someone had posted the idea of putting TJ or YJ flares on the rear of a wag thereby giving you a "Widetrac" Waggie. (I'm toying with the idea, as well as using the TJ flares on modified front fenders) Also, have you considered just welding the doors shut like the old 2-door wagoneers? Just a thought... anyway, from the looks of it you won't have to change all that much, just splice in another wheel tub (not sure that's really needed for an additional 3", having not actually measured) and splice in another 3 or 4 inches of wagoneer fender lip and you're set. Any qualified body shop can easily do this if you tell 'em exactly what you want. (in fact, it's not much different than installing patch panels, and I like the idea of leaving the door alone) BTW, in doing research for a shackle flip, I found it is possible to relocate the axle as you have to make new spring and shackle mounts anyway, so you might as well take out 2 birds with one stone. Anyway, keep the good ideas flowing, after all we love FSJs because there different... so keep on wheelin' and keep the blue side up!

Peace,
Gary

[J20 project]

I'll have to post the pics of my dad's M715 wag again as soon as I find them. The axle had to be centered back of the wheel well on that one to work. J20

[JohnnyJ]

Weld the doors shut? Heavens no!! :) This could one day be a family Wagoneer. (sooner than later if my wife gets her way)

Thanks for the feedback.