Noticon build up plans

[Noticon]

Ok here are the plans I have for my build up of my 75 NT Waggy with a 401 & QT. Inboard rear springs with 63" Chevy springs. Moving the rear springs forward with custom mounts and shackles and SOA. And running some sort of full width axles.

Now the questions.
1) Should I box the frame, or will it be fine, or will it need more cross members?
2) I am thinking for the shackles making my own and making them like a CJ style "H", are there any drawback to doing this?
3) I was hoping to get a set of 715 axles, any major drawbacks?

I'm sure there will be more Q's later as this transgresses. I hope to beable to document the whole thing. That depends on if I can get teenage daughter in the Garage with my digital camera!

[Desert Beast]

1) Should I box the frame, or will it be fine, or will it need more cross members?

depends on how hard you want to wheel it. i ran a non-boxed frame. the rear half as the front is boxed from the factory, (thank you jeep). but i now have a fully boxed frame, and need it.

as for the other 2 q's im not sure. but i know that those m715 axles arnt all that great. but if the price is right then go for it.

[Stuka]

Wellhe is putting the rear springs under the frame. I think he should box it with the springs being mounted under it. Or at least make a boxed area around where the spring mounts are.

Those kind of shackles should be fine, just dont get them too long. Longer the shackle, the more side to side play the axle will have.

For the M715 axles, unless you get them for free, pass them by. They are course spline, getting hard to find parts for, and use the HD6 lug patern (like rockwells). Modern D60/D70 setups are MUCH stronger.

[Noticon]

Modern D60/D70 setups are MUCH stronger.

But much more expensive! I am trying to do this on a dieing mans budget:(, and want to get it done before I do go. Unless you know someone who wants to help sponsor this project!

[jepj2000]

I think you would be better off buying a set of d44s over the M715 axles. You will hate trying to find parts for maintenance for those and when you break them on the trail that will be even worse because no one will have any parts that will work on them. So unless you get them for free pass and buy a set of J20 (8lug d44,D60) axles or something, those kind of setups go for cheap and will be closer to bolting in to you jeep then having to fab up everything to try to make the M715s work. Just my .02

Rankin

[Stuka]

Modern D44's are arguably stronger than the M715's axles. Yes the M715 axles have a big ring and pinion, but the shafts being course spline are not that great. What size tires are you going with? If they are just 35's or so, run your stock axles, or maybe find a set of GM axles if you want the wider stance.

[Noticon]

I was hoping at least 36 but hoping 38s. I know a person who ran them hard on a 725 with no problems, or at least as hard as i will run them plus they are geared well to start with. I literaly don't have much to spend on this as I have cancer and mucho bills. I sold my beloved XJ when I was first diagnosed partly because i needed to pay a few bills and because of depression. Now I want to build a simalarly capable rig for super low bucks. If the 715 axles are too weak how about 3/4 ton Jeep axles? Are they much stronger than the 44's that are under there? Or how about converting the front to 8 lug and a 14 bolt rear. How strong is the front WY 44. Is the axle the same between 1/2 and 3/4 ton jeep axles? Thanks!

Mark

[jepj2000]

I'm sure there has been people that have run M715 axles with big tires and what not, but the problem with trying to run them on a budget is when they break and you have to start trying to find parts and special order parts and have parts custom made just to keep running them is where they will catch up to you in price.

If you want just 36s then I would put new shafts in the axles you have and go for it. If you want an 8-lug axle and 38s then go with J20 axles or chevy axles, but don't covert your front to 8-lug because it will be hard to find or impossible to find a rear axle to match the track width of it being that you have a narrow track.

You should be able to find a set of J20 axles for pretty cheap and maybe with 4.10s. But I don't think going with M715s will be the best and cheapest way to go and I think they will be geared to low if you ever plan on driving the jeep on the street. I don't think you would really want more than 4.56s or at most a 4.88s. In my own project, if I go 39s I will go with 4.56 and if I go 42s then I'll go with 4.88s.

Sorry to here about your diagnosis, I wish the best of luck for you with for your battle and our prayers go out to you.

Rankin

[Noticon]

If you want just 36s then I would put new shafts in the axles you have and go for it. If you want an 8-lug axle and 38s then go with J20 axles or chevy axles, but don't covert your front to 8-lug because it will be hard to find or impossible to find a rear axle to match the track width of it being that you have a narrow track.

You should be able to find a set of J20 axles for pretty cheap and maybe with 4.10s. But I don't think going with M715s will be the best and cheapest way to go and I think they will be geared to low if you ever plan on driving the jeep on the street. I don't think you would really want more than 4.56s or at most a 4.88s. In my own project, if I go 39s I will go with 4.56 and if I go 42s then I'll go with 4.88s.

I want the deep gears this is an off-road only rig. I have a W/T front 44 sitting in my garage waiting to bolt on once I find a rear axle. In my old XJ I was running 5.13 gears with 36" tire and I wanted lower gearing still. It did well on the highway, granted it had OD but it did fine up to 90 mph cept for the scary steering! Thanks for the advice. I will be looking for a Jeep 60 than.

[rokfrog]

I'll be one of the guys helping Mark with this project, we're not worried about streetability and there's no such thing as too low of gearing for this project:D We have a mutual friend with a set of M715 axles that we thought we could get for cheap, but he doesn't want to get rid of them. Is a chebby 3/4ton D44 a bolt in deal? I've got one I'll be donating to the project if it's feasible. How much wider is a chebby D44 than a waggy 44? I know Mark and have wheeled with him for years, this thing will get flogged, so I think fully boxing the frame is in order. Most of my questions deal with suspension, we want this thing to seriously twist up, but on a serious budget. Nothin' fancy, just leaf springs, if we shackle flip and inboard the rear(using 63" chebby springs) and SOA the front(using stock waggy rear springs) will that do the trick?

[jepj2000]

Yes the chevy will bolt in but you will have to set up a crossover/highsteer setup to make it work with the SOA. The Chevy front will be quite a bit wider than a narrow trac waggy front, but someone else will have to give you the actuall difference in width, but I think it will be like 67"-69" on the Chevy and about 60" or so on the waggy. As far as the suspension setup goes I think that will work perfect and that is what I'll be running on my Jtruck.

As far as axles go I think you are looking at the M715 axles just because of the gearing and that is about the only good thing about them for you so you need to let them go IMO and find a set of axles that is supported by the aftermarket so when you break things you can actually fix them with off the shelf parts for much less $$$.

Gearing does not have to come just from the axles either you may want to consider gearing in the tcase or swap to a manual trans with a "granny gear" 1st gear, This will make the rig more versatile but still have a very deep crawl ratio. Also having an auto means you won't have to have as deep of a crawl ratio to have really good throtle control and keep everything really smooth if you know how to drive it.

Be sure you guys have really looked at all the parts you are putting into the project and see where and what you can upgrade and change to get different results.

Rankin

[Noticon]

This is not Robin and my first build We/HE built my first XJ Rob built his very capable Frog. There are no gear options for the QT so it has to be in the rear gears. As for the boxing do we just need to box or should we add cross bracing at the spring perches as well?

[jepj2000]

I understand that there are no gear upgrades for the QT because it is chain driven but I was talking about maybe chaging your tcase to something that has more gearing options like a Dana 300 or NP205. The gearing that is in the M715 axles also do not outway the bad components like axle shafts, spring perches, lug pattern, brakes, etc. I just don't think they are worth the gear ratio in them, it would be cheaper to just regear a set of commonly used axles like a D44s or D60s.

As far as the boxing you are talking about, I assume you mean boxing the frame where you have relocated the new spring and shckle mounts? I would think that you would be good with just boxing the frame, the front does not have any special bracing nor have I seen anyone with it so I think it would not be necessary fpr the rear.

Rankin

[rokfrog]

I think that in the interest of keeping the cost down, we'll prolly stick with the TH400/Q-trac. Any swapping there cost $$ and I think we'd rather stick the $$ saved into axles(considering how Mark likes to break them:p )
The 715 axles are out, dude won't sell them. Hi-steer/cross-over for SOA isn't difficult and it doesn't have to be expensive, I built my own arms and spacers for my D44 on my heep for a grand total of about $10 in steel and few man-hours of fabbing. The only real expensive part was buying the 5/8-3/4 hiems and the DOM tubing for the tie rod and drag link. On 63" chebby springs, is the center pin centered or will we have to move both spring mounts to keep the wheelbase at it's current position? Thanks for all the input so far:thumbsup: great info, please keep it coming!

[Stuka]

You have to move both spring mounts to keep the axle centered with the wheel well when using 63" springs.

[Slick Willie]

Yeah, 63" chevies are centered (31.5" and 31.5").

When you put the spring hangers directly under the frame, box the frame at least where they mount to the frame. But yes, the front half is boxed from the factory, and the rear half is [

[Noticon]

I think Rob and I decided to box the whole frame. Willie I noticed the notched Xmembers in your build What was the pourpose of doing that? BTW that is a sic rig you built! Any other mods we may need to make while doing this?

[Stuka]

To clear the front drive shaft. For a lot of 80's rigs it is required. Not needed on any 70's FSj's. Although on the 70's FSJ's the exhaust y-pipe may need to be redone.

[Noticon]

Although on the 70's FSJ's the exhaust y-pipe may need to be redone.

Amen to thatBut my stock Y pipe is a pos! I was going to come off anyways!

Up to what size tire will a rear 44 hold up to? Just found a line on an older chero(not much details yet :( ) But may have some good usable parts minus an engine. I think the price is too high personally though.

[jepj2000]

You should forsure get a FF D60 or FF14bolt because they are cheap and very strong. And you can match that with a HD44 8-lug for cheap as well. Like you should be able to get these both for like $300. So just keep your eyes out and you may be able to pick up a D60 front for cheap still, there is a place that sells them for $300 here in town but he does not have any right now. So the deals are out there if you look for them.

Rankin

[Noticon]

Ok just ordered a 14 bolt! Finding a 60 front around here is almost impossible Too many people looking for them and they tend to go for around $1000+.

[jepj2000]

Yeah I hear you on the D60 front but just always keep your eyes open. You never know when somebody has an old farm/ranch truck that has one in it and will come up for sale for $700 because they have no idea what it is worth and then you can part the rest of the truck or scrap it and make several hunder dallars back to really bring the price down on that D60 front.

And with everyone trying to get a D60 that means the price on D44 fronts should be cheap because no one wants them.

Rankin

[Noticon]

Yeah I hear you on the D60 front but just always keep your eyes open. You never know when somebody has an old farm/ranch truck that has one in it and will come up for sale for $700 because they have no idea what it is worth and then you can part the rest of the truck or scrap it and make several hunder dallars back to really bring the price down on that D60 front.

And with everyone trying to get a D60 that means the price on D44 fronts should be cheap because no one wants them.

Rankin

That is the problem around here! Too many farmers know the people who want their old junk once in a while I will find a truck pop up and I won't have the funds. I have a 44 with 3.73 gears. I think that they might have to be replaced however. Do depending on the 14 bolt I end up with will determine if I swap gears in the 44 before the build.

[Noticon]

OK here is the baseline for the beginning of the project. I wheeled the Noticon today a bit in the back yard. Had to flog it pretty darn hard Had the 4 bbl open and got her pretty dang warm :oops: Well here they are!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/bluexj89/DSCF0163.jpg
That is Dustin my 8 year old standing with his head next to the rear bumper on the passenger side the right bumper is diging into the dirt.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/bluexj89/DSCF0162.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/bluexj89/DSCF0161.jpg

[Stuka]

rear D60 and14FF's are cheap and easy tofine, but they will be wider than your front axle. Istill think your cheapest route is to find a 75+ 3/4 ton gm or dodge truck to get the axles from. It wil be a D44 front, and either a D60 (dodge) or a 14FF (GM) for the rear axle. You can find them for pretty cheap. But you should know that 80's dodge front axles dont have hubs, so if you look for an 80's rig, look for gm.

Oh, and for the D44 rear strength, they hold up fine to 33's, but can break with 35's if you like the skinny pedal.

[Noticon]

I have a 44 out of a 3/4 ton chebby.

[Stuka]

ahh, then all you need is a rear axle. should be a piece of cake to locate a 14FF. They are everywhere in most junkyards.

[spye]

I have to ask, whats going on with that U-Bolt in the last pic? Looks like its busted. I guess thats a start on the conversion heh?? :p

Spye

[Noticon]

I have to ask, whats going on with that U-Bolt in the last pic? Looks like its busted. I guess thats a start on the conversion heh?? :p

Spye

Yup broke her off on a rock! SOA will solve that from happening again. Plus I will not be replacing them with cheap ubolts.

[Noticon]

Ok for those that have done the inboard springs on the rear how much off camber stability is lost? Does it matter if you run 63" Chevy springs or not? I will also post this on the shackle flip or inboard springs post as well. Thanks all!

[Noticon]

I have been really suprised that there hasn'r been and spinner hub cap jokes!!!