which to go with? NP205 or Dana 300?

[jeeping1974]

there are two guys selling t-cases in my area. one has a NP 205 that came out behind a chevy TH350. the other has a dana 300 (don't know what it came out behind yet). i have a 74 J10 LWB, 360/TH400/QT t-case, dana 44s [i'm looking into changing the rear to a dana 60 out of a dodge W200(http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=71970)] , and planning on running 37" boggers. i do light trail riding now but am looking into getting into some hairier stuff. my questions are...

1) which case is better? (strenght, etc.)(opinions welcome)

2) which one is a passenger side drop, or did they come both ways?

3) which one would be easier to install?

4) which one will fit in between the frame rails of my jeep?

5) will it get in the way of the exhuast?

6) who else has this kind of set up in their jeep that is like mine? i would like to know how it works, what problems you ran into, etc.

i have a lot of work that i'm planning on doing to my J10 and would like to do it all at once if i can. thanks in advance for the help guys and gals.

[elbastardo]

How many guys on this site, have killed an np205 while wheeling?:eek:

[Merc69]

The 205 is the better of the two cases. The 300 is a great case in it's own right but the 205 is pure beef. The 300 has been swapped into various FSJ's but the usually in the later models where the swap is a bolt in.

The 205 needs a little more work. You need to find a 205 that was bolted behind the Chevy TH400. You need parts from the TH400 to make the swap. More work but well worth the effort.

On your rig there is no easy swap as the Q-trac t-case had a unique to it self spline count and bolt pattern.

Do a search on this as this subject has been discussed in depth over the years.

[rockjeep44]

I'd swap in the Dana 300. It's a very straight forward swap with an adapter from Novak. It'll cost you about $450 but it comes with a new output shaft for the TH400 and all the necessary hardware to bolt the D300 up to your transmission. You should be able to reuse your existing crossmember as well. The Dana 300 may not be as strong as a NP205 but they are still very very strong. You are not running a big block or huge tires even if you do go with 37s that's nothing on a D300.

It's light, twin stick ability, cast iron, gear driven, tons of aftermarket upgrades, etc and all with a much better low range than the 205.

[jeeping1974]

thanks for the info guys. i probably will go with the dana 300 seeing as the guy with the NP 205 has not getting back to me at all in the last 4 days. i know there are alot of aftermarket parts for the dana 300 too. it will probably suit my needs pretty well.

anyone else have an opinion?

[j20brett]

I personally would go with the np205, but when you break the d300 you can always upgrade:D

[rockjeep44]

I personally would go with the np205, but when you break the d300 you can always upgrade:D

That's great but you should list reasons why so he can make an informed decision. I fail to see how the 205 would be an upgrade for his application. Also, have you broken or heard about lot of broken Dana 300s? If so, I'd love to hear about it.

[j20brett]

Sorry about that.

Strength. I know that the 300 is tough and all, but it is a half ton case.

And if he doesnt plan on beating it too hard, then i wouldnt worry about it. I plan to romp mine pretty hard in the future, so it wouldnt be worth it to me to build a case just to have it break on me somewhere.

Ive never heard of someone breaking a 205.

There was a thread floating around awhile back about the 300...ill see if i can find it.
Edit: found it...its more about np208 vs. d300, but you get the point
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=59538

[FSJeeper]

That's great but you should list reasons why so he can make an informed decision. I fail to see how the 205 would be an upgrade for his application. Also, have you broken or heard about lot of broken Dana 300s? If so, I'd love to hear about it.

The only advantage the Dana 300 would have over the NP205 would be the lower 4 lo range of 2.6 to 1 versus 2 to 1.

All other areas the NP205 is vastly superior. If I were to do this swap, it would be a lot cheaper to go NP205 versus the Dana 300. Chevy T400 adapters and mainshafts for the NP205 are dirt cheap and plentiful. NP205's are cheaper and you could probably buy a whole T400/NP205 with everything needed for the swap for $200-$250. You would have to rebuild the Jeep T400 with the Chevy mainshaft and adapter, but you would have to with the $480+ Novak or AA adapter also.

This is a full size heavy truck running 37's. In my opinion the Dana 300 would not be optimum.

And yes I have seen broken Dana 300's. Look at the aftermarket for D300's for upgrade parts, it wouldn't exist if there were no demand.

[FSJeeper]

Also, if it were me I would keep the Qtrac versus swapping. Do the manual conversion swap and forget about it.

The Qtrac is a hell of a lot stronger than the D300 will ever dream of being even with expensive upgrades and has a good low range gearing.

[orangecherokee]

I agree with the D300 being for 1/2 tons trucks. If you get into heavy rigs you'll rearly see them pop up. I got mine for the strength of it. I twisted the rear output shaft of my D20(which i know doesn't really count here) but it was a smaller case as well. the low range in the 300 is far superior but I agree with Pascal about just swapping the old out for a newer th400/205 combo. you can always upgrade later with a nice klune or doubler set up. also, if you feel your low range sucks just get the lomax kit and drop it to 3:1. Since you're running an auto I don't think it would matter much IMO.

[jeeping1974]

thats the thing. i have done the part time conversion to my QT case and it has a 2.57:1 low range. the problem is the 4wd/2wd and shifting it low/high. i got it new from BJ's all done. when its in low range 4wd it works good. the problem is getting it in and out of it for between trail driving. my truck weighs in at just under 3100 lbs. (i've removed some things and replaced other things with lighter stuff) even with swapping to a FF dana 60 rear axle and 37" tires, i don't think that it'll add that much weight. i've seen guys wheel wranglers that weight in just as much as my j10, if not more, with a dana 300. plus i would like to have a 4:1 low range to do some crawling with.

[FSJeeper]

If your Qtrac is new, with the part time kit, then I would figure out why you are having problems shifting in between high and low. It must be somthing simple.

Over the years in various qtrac FSJ's I have had to back up in four low, stop, and then shift into high to get it to work smoothly and that was no big deal. Other's I just shifted it normally. Just work with it and see what works.

I would figure out the bug in the shifting and enjoy what you have.

If you swap anyway, the D300, which in my opinion is barely adequate, will have a lot more stress put through it with a 4 to 1 kit. I am fairly certain you will break it and with the auto I doubt you would need that much gearing anyway. If you do, the 3 to 1 lowrange for the NP205 would be the way to go.

[Grantshire]

Let me throw you a curve...:drivin:

I don't dispute the strength of the 205 or TH400 but most of our rigs do not need that much beef (I have a TH400/205 to go behind my 401 for my M715 -different story). Guys have been running TH350's and 700R4's (just an OD TH350) in FSJ's for years.

Find a TF999/Dana 300 combo from a CJ; its a straight bolt-in behind any AMC engine. The 999 has a 2.74 1st gear (lowest thing outside a 700R4) and the Dana 300 has a lower low range than the NP205 or Dana 20. The TF999's are a pretty strong in stock form but can be built to take some stupid horsepower.:cool: The best part is you can have a great crawl ratio AND good highway manners (don't need super low gears). Do the math on crawl ratios and you will find for 35" tires a TF999/Dana 300 with 3.54 gears has about the same crawl ratio as a TH400/NP 205 (or Dana 20) and 4.56 gears.:eek:

I have this setup in my Commando (heavily modified with FSJ axles, 3.73 gears and 35-37" tires). With all the additional beef on the Commando it weighs as much as my Chief.:fsj:

[rockjeep44]

Unless you're wheeling a frame with tires I see no possible way your truck weighs under 3100lbs. And if it does, all the more reason to run the D300. It would easily stand up to a rig that light with a mild V8. I'm a big fan of the 300. It's very similar to an Atlas, it's managable by one person and is very strong for what it is. The only one I've seen break was a cracked case due to a bad mount.

[Slick Willie]

Not another D300 vs. something thread. :rolleyes:

Get a good idea on how slow you want to go first. You have a lot of unknowns right now. Think through what size tires you're going to run for sure, what gears in the axles you're going to buy, and THEN figure out how slow you want to crawl on trails by playing with different tcase combinations.

Say in low you want to go 10 mph at 3000 rpm's instead of 16 mph. You can back calculate using axle gearing, tire size, etc. to get what tcase gearing you will need. Both tcases could be strong, it's just a matter of how much $$ you want to put into them or not.

D300's and GM 205's will both be iron cases, gear driven, passenger drop tcases. The GM 205's commonly have 30 spline front outputs and 32 spline rear outputs. D300's have 26 spline outputs. You can upgrade both cases to get 32 spline front and rear, but stock, without putting in $$ to upgrade, obviously the GM 205 outputs are better.

For the money you can put into a 3:1 205 or a 4:1 D300, you could start thinking about aftermarket tcases like Atlas or Stak. But unless you want to spend that $$$, you should try to keep the upgrades to a minimal when considering tcases. Buy one that can be good for cheap, not one that you need to put $$ into to make good.

I only have a penny, so I owe you one.

[malodin]

And yes I have seen broken Dana 300's. Look at the aftermarket for D300's for upgrade parts, it wouldn't exist if there were no demand.

with that being said the same goes for the 205 there is aftermaket parts for that as well.


I am a firm believer in the d300's capability. i just installed it in my 77 cheif and will be running at least 36" tires. for the cost i am into the 300 and parts to swap it into my th400 less than the advance or novak adapters. yes thats sub 450 including d300 and th400 parts

[Slick Willie]

I am a firm believer in the d300's capability. i just installed it in my 77 cheif and will be running at least 36" tires. for the cost i am into the 300 and parts to swap it into my th400 less than the advance or novak adapters. yes thats sub 450 including d300 and th400 parts

Firm believer from what experiences? Just putting it in? I'm wondering the reason for your firm belief. I.E. if you've ran one or seen one run for a long time. Not picking on you, just getting facts.

Just to clarify, Jeep or Scout D300? And what parts to get them to mate?

[JeepNOFEAR]

I didn't look to hard but the 3:1 205 kit is around $1,000 and the 4:1 dana 300 was $600. I'd go to pirate4x4 and search or ask there. Not that people here don't know but you'll get a lot more stories and opinions there.

Personally I'd wait and go with whatever I can get a great deal on.

[malodin]

firm believer in the 300's capabilities both from experience and the install into my own rig. i have had several friends here with 300's in there cj's and fsj's actually only 2 one fsj and one cj but none the less the 300 is a under estimated case imho. as "it only came in half ton trucks" is the statement everyone uses on it....lots of things have only come in small packages that are used in and above what they came in. take the toyota 2.7ltr 3rzfe motor, only came toyota tacomas but will withstand 1000 hp with turbos and nos, on a bone stock motor. "but it only came in small trucks"(sorry just my opinion that because people think it only came in this thing it only should be in this thing, if that was the case people would never have put v-8's in vegas and pintos)

mine is a jeep 300. to do it on the cheap you need a th400/np208 adapter housing and output shaft(short one preferbly) and a jbconversions custom 32spline input shaft(most expensive part of the whole process) the 300 cost me 100 the shaft 175 and the np208 adapter housing and shaft was 150 as well.

[Cecil14]

firm believer in the 300's capabilities both from experience and the install into my own rig. i have had several friends here with 300's in there cj's and fsj's actually only 2 one fsj and one cj but none the less the 300 is a under estimated case imho. as "it only came in half ton trucks" is the statement everyone uses on it....lots of things have only come in small packages that are used in and above what they came in. take the toyota 2.7ltr 3rzfe motor, only came toyota tacomas but will withstand 1000 hp with turbos and nos, on a bone stock motor. "but it only came in small trucks"(sorry just my opinion that because people think it only came in this thing it only should be in this thing, if that was the case people would never have put v-8's in vegas and pintos)

mine is a jeep 300. to do it on the cheap you need a th400/np208 adapter housing and output shaft(short one preferbly) and a jbconversions custom 32spline input shaft(most expensive part of the whole process) the 300 cost me 100 the shaft 175 and the np208 adapter housing and shaft was 150 as well.

The argument is not that it only CAME in 1/2 tons but that it is simply a 1/2 ton piece of hardware.

Not making an argument for or against, simply clarifying that.

aa

[malodin]

actually thats not the argument, the argument is that because it came in 1/2 ton trucks it is a 1/2 ton piece of hardware. i was just simply stating another piece of "hardware" that came in a light duty rig but can handle so much abuse bone stock

[dusty]

Few things to list out first

1.96:1. (3:1 available with additional costs 1000+)
Bullet proof well almost depending on the model.
fixed clocking position (hang down city) decent assortment of yokes careful what year you get some yokes are no longer made.
single shifter
oh yeah bullet proof.


2.63:1 low range (4:1 available $550).
Not totally bullet proof but run in many rigs with 36- 40" tires for years with stock yokes(32 spline outputs available if you break the stockers which are the same strength as a D44 yoke)
Clockable
twin stickable


In reference to the d300 argument the d20, d21 and d24 all came in 1/2 ton 3/4 ton and 1 ton applications i wouldnt exactly refer to any of them as prime 1 ton or for that matter 3/4 ton cases but they are by application. disassemble and set them by a d300 and the 300 is a sizable improvement i would wager 40% stronger. All honesty the nv241hd and nv271hd cases are stronger yet with higher bearing torque load ratings than the 205. anything can break its a matter of what fits and is most versatile for the application. FYI i cracked a 205 case not through tire hopping abuse but in a twin turbod 4wd dodge towing 30k lbs all the time..... yet my D300 in my cherokee that tows regularly is fine as is my buddys in his j10 that has 20 years worth of 401 sand paddle beating and then towing on it.....

food for thought.

[jeeping1974]

WOW!!! :eek: i've got to thank everyone who has crimped in with their opinions, advice, and experience with these two cases. :thumbsup:

i'm seriously considering going with the dana 300 as there are a few of these around here pretty cheap so i will probably get a second one just as a back up (i do it with just about all my parts).

thanks again guys. you have all been a huge help.

[malodin]

Few things to list out first

1.96:1. (3:1 available with additional costs 1000+)
Bullet proof well almost depending on the model.
fixed clocking position (hang down city) decent assortment of yokes careful what year you get some yokes are no longer made.
single shifter
oh yeah bullet proof.


2.63:1 low range (4:1 available $550).
Not totally bullet proof but run in many rigs with 36- 40" tires for years with stock yokes(32 spline outputs available if you break the stockers which are the same strength as a D44 yoke)
Clockable
twin stickable


In reference to the d300 argument the d20, d21 and d24 all came in 1/2 ton 3/4 ton and 1 ton applications i wouldnt exactly refer to any of them as prime 1 ton or for that matter 3/4 ton cases but they are by application. disassemble and set them by a d300 and the 300 is a sizable improvement i would wager 40% stronger. All honesty the nv241hd and nv271hd cases are stronger yet with higher bearing torque load ratings than the 205. anything can break its a matter of what fits and is most versatile for the application. FYI i cracked a 205 case not through tire hopping abuse but in a twin turbod 4wd dodge towing 30k lbs all the time..... yet my D300 in my cherokee that tows regularly is fine as is my buddys in his j10 that has 20 years worth of 401 sand paddle beating and then towing on it.....

food for thought.

dusty, that sums up just about everything i was trying to say that i did not have any "hard numbers" or evidence on. thank you.

[elbastardo]

300s are a gateway drug to 205s:hide: .

All good input, and all good info:thumbsup: , I think that rearly do us moderate wheelers blow T-cases. IMO neither will let you down.

[scotty]

i thot i was going to stay out of this one,but just a couple quick points.

i agree with both andrew and pascal. the d300 is a great case for what it is,and is very upgradeable. you can make one almost as strong as an atlas for about half the cost,and you could do it a section at a time,if you wanted,as funds became available. when youre done the only difference is the stock cast iron housing. not sure how this compares to the billet aluminum atlas housing.

if youre planning to to spend that kind of $$ on a trasnfer case,and need the super low low range,get the 300. its a great alternative to the atlas.

comparing stock case to stock case is silly. 205 and 300 are apples and oranges. you will break a d300 several times putting a stock case thru the same abuse a stock 205 will take happily.

so if you dont need the low range,and simply need a cheap,bulletproof t case,go with the 205.

i will agree the QT is a great full time case and was well ahead of its time in that aspect.i will also agree that it will easily handle a moderate amount of abuse if its in good shape and then well maitaned. however,there are a couple things that i dont like about them. the E drive spline engagement is very small,so when you convert to part time, there as not alot keeping your front axle engaged. the biggest issue for me,however,is that the chain drives both outpouts. yes,its a big beefy chain,but this extra stress only makes even the best chain only last 50k-60k miles.

the QT is a great case for a 30 year old full time case,but like the d300,when you start adding big tires and lots of power,you will break several putting them thru the same abuse a 205 will take without breaking a sweat.

my 2 cents :drivin:

[adamsclarke]

and a 205 is twin stick-able....if that's even a word.

[Slick Willie]

firm believer in the 300's capabilities both from experience and the install into my own rig. i have had several friends here with 300's in there cj's and fsj's actually only 2 one fsj and one cj but none the less the 300 is a under estimated case imho.

Just curious, how big are the tires they run and how long have they run them?

[JeepNOFEAR]

So in another thread I just found out that a 727 bolts right up to a dana 300. That sounds like the cheapest and easiest thing to do right there.

[malodin]

Just curious, how big are the tires they run and how long have they run them?

the cj is 35's and the fsj is 38's...been running them for at least 2yrs now (since ive known them) there what got me into doing the 300 in my jeep in the first place.

[Slick Willie]

Fair enough.

JeepNOFEAR, the D300 bolts up to a 727, but there are front driveshaft clearance problems.
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=69638

But yes, 727/D300 would bolt up, saving $450 to get it to work with a TH400. You just have to make a really skinny driveshaft.

[Kimbrough]

...And to "bolt up" a D300 to a 727-equipped rig you need to swap to a passenger-side axle...

[1-tonmudder]

All other areas the NP205 is vastly superior. If I were to do this swap, it would be a lot cheaper to go NP205 versus the Dana 300. Chevy T400 adapters and mainshafts for the NP205 are dirt cheap and plentiful. NP205's are cheaper and you could probably buy a whole T400/NP205 with everything needed for the swap for $200-$250
I have to disagree,the adapter alone will bring at least $200.A complete 400/205 set up will bring up close to $600.Why not chnge your output and run a Dana 20??

[jeeping1974]

the kit to hook up a dana 20 to my tranny is $515. i talked to a local guy about this yesterday.

turns out the dana 300 is a little cheaper (overall, with how i wheel) and is just the better choice for my need.

[malodin]

...And to "bolt up" a D300 to a 727-equipped rig you need to swap to a passenger-side axle...


Kimbrough, the originall poster does have a passenger side axle as hes pre 80's

[Kimbrough]

uh...i knew that...

[jeeping1974]

But yes, 727/D300 would bolt up, saving $450 to get it to work with a TH400. You just have to make a really skinny driveshaft.

is thats the problem. i do not want to swap trannies either. i have built my TH400 with a B&M race master rebuilt kit, B&M heavey duty shift kit (stage 1), B&M 2000 RPM torq stall convertor, and B&M adjustable vacuum module. i'd rather keep my TH400. plus i've got a friend that works in a tranny shop that is finding and holding onto bigger and stronger parts for it to make it even stronger in the future.

[malodin]

jeeping, if he works in a tranny shop he should be able to find you the short shaft th400/208 output shaft and adapter housing for cheap, get that and all you need is the jbconversions 32spline input shaft.

[ajbirken]

Swapping transfercases sounds like a lot of work/money to fix what seems like a linkage problem.

I love the dana300 (I have one in my J10, swapped out a stronger rockwell T221 because of it's crappy low-range), but personally would switch it just because my low-range shifter was finicky.

Just my 2 cents.

[orangecherokee]

I have to disagree,the adapter alone will bring at least $200.A complete 400/205 set up will bring up close to $600.Why not chnge your output and run a Dana 20??

i don't know what land you live in but your prices are always on the high side. $600 is a rip off. You can easily find that set up for $400. D20 are the weak stuff and you'll easily twist the output shaft. there's just no beef unless you upgrade.

[1-tonmudder]

I live in the real world,you can part a 205 for a 400 for $500 or more and a good TH400(chevy) will bring $200-$300.Of coarse there is a chance you can find somebody just wanting to get rid of something for less.How about a phone # or link to some of these cheap 400/205 combo's???

[malodin]

around here th400/205's are on the 400+ side for the combos like 1ton said...

[scotty]

you guys that think you have to pay $600 for a th400/205 need to refine your "scrounging" skills ;)

sure,if the seller is advertising a good th400/205 then he obviously knows what it is and what it maight be worth. you need to call the adds that are vauge,and say stuff like "chevy 4wd tranny" or "parting out chevy truck". pick it up from some good ole boy that bought a parts truck for the good 350 to put in his car and is now trying to recover some of the cost. he might not have a clue,or even care what it is,he just wants a quick buck :)

[orangecherokee]

I live in the real world,you can part a 205 for a 400 for $500 or more and a good TH400(chevy) will bring $200-$300.Of coarse there is a chance you can find somebody just wanting to get rid of something for less.How about a phone # or link to some of these cheap 400/205 combo's???

why? so you can horde them and sell them for $600? I'm sorry and this really isn't the place for it but you rip people off. you've offered me a couple parts and they were well beyond reasonable. $125 for a bellhousing? yeah, I'll go live in my world instead of your real world.

back on topic. i'm done with this.

[1-tonmudder]

The reason why is becuase you dont know.Everybody know's where to get all this stuff so cheap until they are pressed for a location or phone # then they give some lame reason why not.If a person willingly pays what you ask how is that ripping them off?? The value of a said part is up to each potential buyer just because you dont like the price dont mean somebody else thinks it's fair.I can back up what I'm saying can you????

As far the $125 for a bell I probably did but really don't remember,but that was probably shipped,and do you not price with a cushion??

I see you are in Candler NC.I have done a lot of buisness with Vance Enterprizes in Waynesville and we are usually close on price,but I guess he is ripping people off also.

Scotty you are exactly right and that is how I have found a lot of stuff,but that could be considered "taking adavntage" of someone who doesnt know any better.I've been accused of that as well.

[jeeping1974]

so i picked up a dana 300 for $100 plus made a friend who can get a lot of parts for me (axles, trannies. motors, etc.) so i think i made out.

the way i see it, one price might be good to someone else and a rip off to another person. if someone wants to pay that price then let them. its their own money. it also depends on how many are in that area.

[malodin]

jeepin, thats an awsome price for a d300, now you get the 208 adapter housing and output shaft for say another 100-150 and then get the jbconversions 32spl input shaft for the d300 for around 175 and your still less than the a/a adapter.

scotty, i beseach you to come up to washington state and find any body that is selling a 400/205 in decent shape for sub 500. not only do most anyone here in the state that is parting out rigs know what they have but there were not many 400/205's in rigs up here they were almost all 350/205's(those can be had sub 200)

[jeeping1974]

jeepin, thats an awsome price for a d300, now you get the 208 adapter housing and output shaft for say another 100-150 and then get the jbconversions 32spl input shaft for the d300 for around 175 and your still less than the a/a adapter.

so i need to find a TH400/NP208 (or NP205?) adaptor and output shaft? will that bolt up to my TH400 though seeing that it is the AMC bellhousing? what is the chance that going from a 21 or 23 spline shaft to a 32 spline shaft that the shaft will slip inside of the adaptor?

sorry for all the questions. i just want to be sure of everything first before i go looking/buying parts that will not work. money is tight as a lot of people here know.

[1-tonmudder]

The 400/208 adapter would probably be a better choice since it has no provisions for a shifter.The 205 adapter does and would/should cost more.A Chevy 4L80/241 adapter would be the same as the 400/208 unit.A Chevy TH400 output came in different lenths depending on what case was behind them(203 or 205 with the short or long input)so be sure which you need beforehand. An AMC TH400 out-put that was originally mated to a Dana 20 might be the one you need.

[malodin]

not a problem on all the questions.

as far as i know you cant use a 205 adapter.

http://www.filehive.com/files/0715/outputshaft.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0715/adapterhousing.jpg

these are the two items you need from the th400/208 setup, yes they bolt right into the th400, yes you will have to dissasemble the guts of the th400(but luckily yours is rebuilt so all you would need to do is put in a filter kit or so) you have to swap the q/t tailshaft with that of the 208 tailshaft. then you unbolt the adapter housing for the q/t and bold up the 208 adapter housing.

then you install the jbconversions 32spline input shaft(the 208 tailshaft is 32spl) then when you go to bolt up the d300 to the back of the 400 you may find that it wont seat all the way(was the case with mine) if thats the case then you have to grind off the end of the 400's tailhsaft about 1/4 inch or so(really easy to do, stuff some rags inside the adapter housing, i just used a cheap h/f 4" grinder took about 10 minutes or so) if not your set(i think there were two different lenghts of 208 tailshaft's)

http://www.filehive.com/files/0715/gear2.jpg

this is the jbconversions input it gets bolted into the d300

[DAHoyle]

So in another thread I just found out that a 727 bolts right up to a dana 300. That sounds like the cheapest and easiest thing to do right there.

not sure that that matters, since he has a TH400.

For what it's worth, There is absolutely no honest argument that the 300 is as strong as the 205. That said, there are a large number of 300's out there behind stout V8 engines from virtually every manufacturer, and they generally hold up just fine. If you want, or need, the ultimate in strength, the 205 is the right T-case. If you are running a stock 360, I think the 300 is plenty strong for your rig. My setup is a TH400, to a divorced Ford 205, but that is dictated by a number of un-related issues. I also have a Dodge divorced T-case, and a Dodge 727/205 married combination. The correct answer is to assess your needs, or desires, and pick the setup that is most appropriate to that end. They are both very good cases.

Doug

[jeeping1974]

Malodin - all i have to do is remove the t-case and adaptor housing from the tranny, replace the old output shaft with the 32 spline one, install the NP208 adaptor housing to the tranny, replace the input shaft in the dana 300 with the new one and bolt it all together? sounds easy enough. now i guess i just need to find the rest of the parts.

thank you all so much. you have all be a great help. once i get everything that i need i will be posting it in the tech section. probably won't be any time soon though as i am going to pull the motor at the same time and replace the cam and heads while i have everything out.

thank you guys again.:thumbsup:

[jeeping1974]

oh yeah. this is the dana 300 that i got. anyone do a twin stick conversion and 4:1 kit? how easy was it? i have to count the splines but i think it might already have a 32 spline shaft in it. what did they come with stock?

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/jeeping1974/P7150327.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/jeeping1974/P7150333.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/jeeping1974/P7150328.jpg

[malodin]

i did my own twin stick setup came out ok, i will do another one on my other d300 i have and it will be better.(first one is always a prototype)

the d300 comes stock with a 23spline input shaft(thats the piece under/in the aluminum housing you can see in the pick)


you will have to remove the tranny and remove the guts of the tranny to swap in the tailshaft(gotta thank chevy for that one :) )

which wont be to hard if you already go the tranny rebuilt as you wont need to fully dissasemble the tranny you just have to remove the guts.


i used this page to build my twin stick setup only changed a few things(little bigger bar and some other things i cant think of right now)
http://www.jeepgod.net/twind300.html

follow the directions on this page but change the dimensions to this
http://www.filehive.com/files/0716/twinstick1.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0716/twinstick2.jpg
the bottom pic measurements is refering to the bottom pieces of metal, you can barely see them, basically you just have to take the guys measurements and add 4.5" to the top and bottom set of brackets.

[malodin]

as well, i will get you pictures of my twin stick sitting in the jeep, i had to extend the bars that go out front out alot more than what that guy has(his is for the a cj style jeep) i will get the measurments of that, the twin sticks come up in the same hole as the d20 would have if there was a manual in it. which is good because the jeep has the floor pan that removes in two pieces one for the d20 hole and then the main big one.

[scotty]

not sure that that matters, since he has a TH400.


sure,it matters. the th400 has to come out to swap the tailshaft anyway,simply swapping a 727 in place of it is a very viable means of getting the d300 into his rig.

once you factor in the cost of the right adapter and tailshaft for the th400,the cost of the new input gear,and the cost of rebuilding the th400 with the new parts,you may come out well ahead of the game to purchase a good 727 and throw it in. especially if you are not comfortable rebuilding an auto tranny and need to have that profesionally done.

727 is right up there in terms of strength with the th400,so i dont see any logical reason to keep one over the other.

[DAHoyle]

No arguement from me on that point, I have one of each. However, he said that he had a built 400, and wanted to retain that. In either case, you do have to deal with a number of issues, whichever way you go, so the right answer is to go with whever you prefer, because either setup will most likely be fine.

I could argue in favor, or against, either choice, but what I would do doesn't really enter into the equation. It's all about what he wants to do.

Doug

[jeeping1974]

sure,it matters. the th400 has to come out to swap the tailshaft anyway,simply swapping a 727 in place of it is a very viable means of getting the d300 into his rig.

once you factor in the cost of the right adapter and tailshaft for the th400,the cost of the new input gear,and the cost of rebuilding the th400 with the new parts,you may come out well ahead of the game to purchase a good 727 and throw it in. especially if you are not comfortable rebuilding an auto tranny and need to have that profesionally done.

727 is right up there in terms of strength with the th400,so i dont see any logical reason to keep one over the other.

see that the thing. i spent about 1200 on parts and labor to get the TH400 built how i have it just last year and haven't really run it that much do to some other factors. i have a friend that is willing to swap the shaft for me for real cheap seeing that he is the one that did all the work in the beginning. i have had a 727 behind a chrysler big block and i know that they are very strong with the right stuff in them. i would have gone that way if i didn't already have the TH400 already done.

[malodin]

in all actuallity your friend should be able to swap the tailshaft with out having to do a complete rebuild maybe just replace the o-rings for the case thats about it.

[jeeping1974]

i've been thinking about replacing my bench seat with a set of seats from a wrangler so i think that i might be able to use just a normal twin stick setup seeing that there will not be anything over the hump. are most/all twin stick conversions the same? are there ones that i should stay away from? others i should be looking at?

[dusty]

depends on the tranny you have. for me i ended up cutting the twinsticks up and making them really short and taking all the bends out for use in my cherokee.

[Carl Rasmussen]

I'd go to pirate4x4 and search or ask there. Not that people here don't know but you'll get a lot more stories and opinions there.



mostly stories, and expect to get flamed on pirate because most of them have nothing better to do. :banghead:

[Casey]

i've been thinking about replacing my bench seat with a set of seats from a wrangler so i think that i might be able to use just a normal twin stick setup seeing that there will not be anything over the hump. are most/all twin stick conversions the same? are there ones that i should stay away from? others i should be looking at?
Currie sticks (CJ) on a 300 work well behind the 727. Almost in the perfect spot.

I dunno 'bout other trannys.


I traded my 300/727 for a 205 with the short 32 spline input. I have all but the doubler adapter at this point. 700r4/203/205 for me. :thumbsup:

[malodin]

jeepin, the only reason i made the shafts longer is because i wanted it to go through the stock location so i can place my big pan back on there and all i need is a normal twin stick boot off of ebay. if you look at the d20 that is in fsj's the shaft is about 10-12" long to get it coming out the same place i have mine coming out. i think mostly it will come down to what you choose more than any other reason.

[jeeping1974]

malodin, i did notice that about yours. thats a good idea. what do you have for a tranny?

i haven't officially decided yet about it. i'll have to do some measuring to see where i'll sit. how long is the th400/np208 adaptor housing? once i know that i can figure out exactly where the shifters will be located.

[malodin]

mine is th400/208 adapter housing and d300. if you do it like that yours might sit slightly different due to it being a j-truck but i doubt it.

[jeeping1974]

mine is th400/208 adapter housing and d300. if you do it like that yours might sit slightly different due to it being a j-truck but i doubt it.

it will probably sit the same seeing that the frames are all the same... i think :confused: . thanks for the help

[jeeping1974]

are all the 4:1 kits that say "tera low" the same? does one company make them and every one sells them? how hard is it to install? i am thinking about having my friend that is doing the output shaft in my tranny do this for me also. is it worth going with the 32 spline output shafts front and rear? should i think about getting a clocking ring?

sorry for all the questions.

[BRUTUS]

are all the 4:1 kits that say "tera low" the same? does one company make them and every one sells them? how hard is it to install? i am thinking about having my friend that is doing the output shaft in my tranny do this for me also. is it worth going with the 32 spline output shafts front and rear? should i think about getting a clocking ring?

sorry for all the questions.

A couple of companies make a 4:1 for the D300. I know JB conversions (http://www.jbconversions.com)has them. Tera Low is a differnet company AFAIK. Not sure how hard it is... a shadetree mechanic shouldn't have any problem with them... May need a bearing press though.... not sure.

I think that going to 32 spline right off the bat is a good idea considering it is your t-case.... and it is vital to getting you off the trail. It really is up to you... how hard do you plan to wheel it?

I am not sure about the clocking ring... I think it is a good idea to have the option.... and considering your wheelbase, you might regret not having it down the road.

[scotty]

i spent about 1200 on parts and labor to get the TH400 built

i forgot that you had stated that earlier,and i can understand your desires to keep it after spending all that $$ :eek:

if you still had a stock tranny,i felt it was important to know swapping the tranny out is a good option,so you could make a better,more informed decision.

but,as malodin said,im sure your friend can do the tailsahft swap without having to do a full rebuild.

sorry i wasnt payin attention :o

[malodin]

i forgot to mention that you have to leave one bolt out between the 208 housing and d300, then you can clock it any way you want. if you look at my pictures the t-case is pretty well stuffed up in there and is close to flat as can be.

[jeeping1974]

i certainly am not just gonna go out, mash the gas and hope for the best when it comes to wheeling. i believe in picking a line and taking it easy. i'll probably just get a rebuild kit, 4:1 kit, and twin stick ceonversion for now.

[malodin]

you might think about spending the money from the 4-1 low kit on the 32spline output shafts first, are you satisified with the q/t's low range? if so the d300 is within a few points of that stock. I know for my wheeling i am satisified with the d300's low range

[jeeping1974]

i know that the dana 300 is .1 lower (higher number wise) than the QT. i would like a better crawl ratio seeing that first gear in my tranny is 2.48:1 and i'm going with 4.10 R+P. that only gives me a finial crawl ratio of 26.23 where as the 4:1 kit will give me a 40.67. 4:1 and 4.56 R+P would give me 45.24 which would be better for most of the trails around here. once my tranny goes, i'll probably look into swapping in a manual, or see if there is any way to get a lower first gear.

[malodin]

theres only a mild lower gear for the th400, doesnt drop it down all that much. its personall preference then, for me i am happy with my th400's crawl ratio with 4.10's but i have my little sidekick for rock trail abusing so the jeep just plays in the mud and what not so i dont need anything super deep.

another thing to think about though is the fact that by going deeper gears in the t-case you will be putting greater stress on the output shafts and may blow them quick then you thought. could always spend the money on the better output shafts and then do a home rebuild of another 300 with the terra low kit, while your driving your truck then when you get the low kit assembled drop your current d300 and swap the input/output shafts as they are the easiest part to remove on the d300.

[jeeping1974]

what type of driveshafts should i be looking into the front and rear? single u-joint top and bottom? CV joint at the top? double u-joint top? i'm also thinking about about going with a set of u-joints that allow 10* more to the driveshaft angle. here is a link to them.

http://www.4xshaft.com/index.html

it says "Super-Flex Universal Joints"

[malodin]

well, my rear shaft bolted right in, i needed a conversion joint for the 14bff in back but other than that its a perfect fit(at least with the adapter i used)i am talking to another guy that has an adapter that is 4.25" deep, which would change the crossmember location and drive shaft length. I set my stock front driveshaft up there and everything looked good, didnt install it yet because i figured id have to remove the case again for who knows what reason. my front is just a one side cardan joint and the other just a normal ujoint

[jeeping1974]

thats how my front is also. i am thinking about just getting new shafts since i'm lifting the j10 alot more.

[malodin]

i am running 4" skyjacker lift blocks in the rear with the 14bff and a spoa d44 and all is well, though it probably will change a little when i get the springs inboarded or at least a shackel flip done

[Slick Willie]

I wheeled with a 26:1 ratio with 42's a few times. :eek: It worked fine for rock crawling. It just took a little more gas than most. :thumbsup:

I agree with installing it now with 32 spline outputs and upgrading to a 4:1 later down the line. You can wheel with a 26:1 with 37's just fine. Stock D300's have 26 spline outputs. You can see some differences here: http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/mambo2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=32 (http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/mambo2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=32)

If you run larger Ujoints than stock 1310, you might break the output before a Ujoint, but that's not guaranteed.

The way I see it, if you spent over a grand on building up a tranny, I would imagine beefing up the rest of the drivetrain would be important. Don't cut corners now.

[scotty]

i would like a better crawl ratio seeing that first gear in my tranny is 2.48:1 and i'm going with 4.10 R+P. that only gives me a finial crawl ratio of 26.23. there is any way to get a lower first gear

you are not factoring in the torque convertor. no way automatics would be as popular or as driveable if the tranny "felt" like a manual tranny with a 2.48 ratio. the most common way of figuring crawl ratios with the auto is to double the first gear,so your 2.48 feels like a manual tranny with a ratio of 4.96. 5:1 is a lower first gear than most non-granny transmissions use(t150 uses a 3:1,t176 and many others use a 4:1 first),and is the same as some 5 speeds.

so your crawl ratio with a stock d300 and 4.10s is actually more like: 4.96x2.61x4.10=53.07 not nearly as bad as you thot ;)

crawl ratio is important,but dont become so involved with it that you forget how to wheel in the real world. i used to drive my GW back and forth to the trails with 38" tires,a 904 auto and 3.31 axle gears :eek: i did this with several different NP cases and the d300,and they all drove fine on the road and did fine on my trails in low range.


i'll probably look into swapping in a manual.
now youre talkin :thumbsup: but if youre doing it only to get a lower final drive,thats not such a great reason.

if you want to do it because the granny 4 speed gives you more gear combinations,or because you feel a grindbox is more reliable than a slushbox,or because you feel like you have more control with the manual,then go for it.

but dont do it just because you think the 2.48 first gear is hurting your off road performance.

[jeeping1974]

i love manual trannies. i love having more control over the vehicle. my DD is a manual and i love it. i'll probably look into a SM465 tranny though just for the reason of great crawl ratios and control.

[jeeping1974]

so i got the TH400 to np208 adaptor housing in yesterday and i wanted to make sure that it would fit. it does fit but there is a problem. 5 out of the 6 bolt holes line up. is this normal? should i run it like that and be ok or should i drill a new hole so that it lines up properly? here is what it looks like.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/jeeping1974/P7210360.jpg

i am planning on using lock tight on the bolts (the blue one). also how does the output of the tranny get sealed? do i just put a thin layer of RTV on the housing between that and the dana 300?

[malodin]

yes 5/6 bolts is normal, the 6th bolt is what clocked the 208 you could once you have the tranny and stuff up in there and figure where you want your t-case to hang drill out the other bolt hole, i didnt it.

there is a round pattern dry gasket you can get at the auto stores for cheap, might have to work with them a little bit and get it figured out. or just use rtv.

[Big-wagon87]

MY 2 Cents: 205 to a 400th hard to beat my upgrades once you have your case. GM 205 for a 400 has lomax kits to get your ratios low to 300;1 or something like that or make a klune or 203 under drive or even a low max with a underdrive that would be ultra ultra low. The 205 is cheap gear driven and can handle as much power any amc moter can give it.

oh yeah check every junk yard you can get used ones for 250 if you aint in dire need and look around. often you can buy old junk ton chevys that will have axles and cases for 500 that what these park jockeys do.

CH

[jeeping1974]

i'm not sure about that kind of pricing up here. you can find sm465/np205 combos up here for $100-$150 and a np205 and dana 300 t-cases for $100-$150 bucks.