Ordered EFI

[coiler]

Well I did it I made up my mind and ordered the Edelbrock efi along with a bunch of goodies from BJs today. All parts will be going on a feshly rebuilt 401 bored.030. Anyone want to come help with the removal and install LOL. :drivin:

[HOOT]

In my livingroom I have the same set up still in the box sitting on top of the box that contains the Edlebrock alum. heads. Those are in turn setting on a double stack of six, 8 lug alum 5 slot mags. Which in turn is setting right next to a rear disc brake kit, brake booster, and new front calipers. On second thought I see there is a Hobart welder in between the wheels and brake stuff..:eek: . I also just found my Edlebrock headers buried in there. The new Edlebrock alum valve covers are in the spare room. Also have a 8qt.oil pan and tranny pan from Bulltear waiting to go on.
The soon to be built 40H1 is out in the garage. I'm not a total redneck.;)
All this is getting dropped into the Chero in the link below..
http://fsjworld.tenmagazines.com/gallery/hoot/81629.jpg
Ain't life grand :thumbsup:

So get your stuff down here and lets have a Jeep building weekend or week.

[Ralph]

As my friend Jeff Kennedy (a long-time AMC parts seller in Ohio) would say: "That's righteous!"

[etjeep]

Congrats! Now welcome to the poor house. Its awesome (except for the price, but its only money).

I recently installed. Here are a few shots of what I did on my install. http://good-times.webshots.com/album/556534678NsFUUS

[coiler]

etjeep how does it run. May need a few pointers on setup.

[etjeep]

No road testing yet, I am finsihing a few other things on the jeep first. In the garage 0- 3,000 rpm and in between runs............. AWESOME!

[etjeep]

No problem, I'll try to answer any questions if it helps.

[jpcoutts]

I can't wait to hear what you guys think of this setup. So far I 've not heard of anybody that has actually put it on their Jeep. Keep us informed!

[710 Burner]

In my livingroom I have the same set up still in the box sitting on top of the box that contains the Edlebrock alum. heads. Those are in turn setting on a double stack of six, 8 lug alum 5 slot mags. Which in turn is setting right next to a rear disc brake kit, brake booster, and new front calipers. On second thought I see there is a Hobart welder in between the wheels and brake stuff..:eek: . I also just found my Edlebrock headers buried in there. The new Edlebrock alum valve covers are in the spare room. Also have a 8qt.oil pan and tranny pan from Bulltear waiting to go on.
The soon to be built 40H1 is out in the garage. I'm not a total redneck.;)
All this is getting dropped into the Chero in the link below..
http://fsjworld.tenmagazines.com/gallery/hoot/81629.jpg
Ain't life grand :thumbsup:

So get your stuff down here and lets have a Jeep building weekend or week.
Nothing says bachelor like having parts of the real girlfriend all over the house. :D

[will e]

Any updates? I have decided to take my jeep in a new direction (dump even more money into it. LOL). Might go for this setup. Would be interested to know how it runs at high altitude.

[Bill USN-1]

If it runs an O2 sensor then altitude shouldn't affect it.
It should adjust the fuel as it starts to get rich.

What it won't do is adjust the timing.
You can add about 1° for each 1000ft elevation to gain some of that power back.

[FSJ Guy]

Edelbrock's MPFI doesn't have timing control??? Hmm... For the $$$, you'd think it would....
:confused:

[Bill USN-1]

I'm sure it provides fuel and timing control.
What FI systems(or carbs) don't do is adjust the base timing as you increase in altitude.
It is not needed to operate at altitude but it does help to gain some of the lost power do to the thinner air.
The ECM will automatically adjust the fuel so you are not blowing the big clouds of black smoke like you do with a carb.

Just something to keep in mind if you plan a wheeling trip to the fourteeners in CO. Above 10K ft you need all the extra power you can get.
I thought it was interesting that these are speed density systems, meaning they use a map sensor vice a MAF sensor. Kind of makes it on par with the cheaper GM TBI systems like the Howell ot junkyard setups.
2X the cost for no real gain MPG or useable power. IMHO.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/edl-3531_w.jpg

Instructions
http://store.summitracing.com/instructions.asp?File=edl%2D35303531%2Dpro%2Dflomp fisystemfo%2Epdf

Bolt on powerful and efficient fuel injection.
These Edelbrock Performer RPM Pro-Flo EFI systems include everything needed to bolt on powerful and efficient fuel injection. Edelbrock EFI systems supply all necessary components, including a unique Calibration Module that totally eliminates the need for a laptop. With these speed/density systems, you get total engine control for excellent throttle response throughout the rpm range, great fuel economy with incredible horsepower, smooth engine operation, and improved cold starting.

[etjeep]

I'm sure it provides fuel and timing control.


http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/edl-3531_w.jpg



Yes it does, very nicely.

What FI systems(or carbs) don't do is adjust the base timing as you increase in altitude. .....The ECM will automatically adjust the fuel so you are not blowing the big clouds of black smoke like you do with a carb.

Just something to keep in mind if you plan a wheeling trip to the fourteeners in CO. Above 10K ft you need all the extra power you can get.


Fuel is adjusted automatically with the algorithm based on the MAP and MAT readings. I have not tried multiple tunes yet. We don't have fourteeners on this coast, but the module lets you program and save four (IIRC) custom tunes. And you can use the control module in the cab.

I thought it was interesting that these are speed density systems, meaning they use a map sensor vice a MAF sensor.


To think Edel would dare sell us a FI system that did not have a CPS, the best IMO, I mean come on! Yes mass air flow is probly a little more precise as far as the performance goes. SD just simplifies it for several reasons: a.) its fairly proven, just need the right algorithm b.) one less part to go bad and c.) Its a kit that needs to be saleable to multiple applications so its the easiest to adapt. I am not upset about that in the least.

Kind of makes it on par with the cheaper GM TBI systems like the Howell ot junkyard setups.
2X the cost for no real gain MPG or useable power. IMHO.

Umm, how can I put this....HELL NO! I had a GM TBI in my 92 Burb. MPFI is by far a superior system. I am not against TBI, it works fine for squirting gas down the throttle body which is fine for most off-road situations and is better than a carb for off-camber. Is a junkyard GM TBI a good value.........sure it is......but its not on par with the Edel MPFI system. Try again, ....this could make for some good discussion, but your commentary sounded to me like you were an Edel hater out of the box, and were knocking it like it was a POS. JMHO.

[quote=Bill USN-1]

[will e]

Do you have any info on emissions compliance? I live in AZ and they get all freaked out if you change things. Too bad. You would think they would support a changeover from Carb to EFI on old iron....

[etjeep]

Out of the box, the Edel is not "emissions compliant" meaning you can not operate it with the stock emissions equipment that came on most FSJs. Their manifold has no EGR and you have to remove the air injection for the closed loop O2 sensor. If your inspections are rigourous, then this would not work for you. My '78 is down to safety inspections meaning its so old they don't lift the hood. OTOH its a jeep, who says all that stuff has to work, someone creative (usually the DSPO) could always make the emissions look functional.

[Bill USN-1]

Umm, how can I put this....HELL NO! I had a GM TBI in my 92 Burb. MPFI is by far a superior system. I am not against TBI, it works fine for squirting gas down the throttle body which is fine for most off-road situations and is better than a carb for off-camber. Is a junkyard GM TBI a good value.........sure it is......but its not on par with the Edel MPFI system. Try again, ....this could make for some good discussion, but your commentary sounded to me like you were an Edel hater out of the box, and were knocking it like it was a POS. JMHO.


It's your money not mine...so if your happy then that's all that matters....

But pls don't use JMHO in place of facts.

When there is real comparable data that proves the MPFI delivers significantly better MPG and HP/torque given the same parameters then maybe you can convince that the ROI-return on investment is justified.
And any pressurized fuel system would work equally well for off road only use..whether it's TBI or MPFI or even propane. So I really don't see the validity in your statement. How can MPFI be better off road then TBI?

That said the systems need to be comparable.
You can't say my Burb with TBI was junk but my jeep with MPFI is great.
Those are all subjective remarks.

As I pointed out before..MPFI was designed for increased idle emissions so the car companys could pass the new requirements.
So at idle it is more efficient.
As a result..your in town MPG may increase slightly.

As for power....if you compare 2 systems of the same size on the same motor how much increase in power do you really think you will see from a dry manifold vs a wet manifold?
1 hp....5hp?

Should we also add in the factors that if the heads were not originally designed for the MPFI and the angle of the spray pattern entering the manifold before it flows into the head are very important to the overall efficiency of the system.
There have been some conversions to MPFI that have actually netted less HP.


But just to clear the air of your misconceptions...I actually prefer the MPFI system over the TBI, but it has nothing at all to do with performance or MPG. If MPFI actually did make that much difference then I would have already converted.

The reason I like them better is the "Bling" is better.
But most of us know that "chrome don't get you home" from the trail.

That's why I have not converted to MPFI,

But I am working on a dual fuel TBI/MPPI set up.
That's TBI on top and multiport propane injection on the manifold.

Or I may go the other way????

But then again...I may just go diesel with propane injection!!!

So please provide all the "factual" comparison data you have. I and others I would think, looking to make changes would love to have additional resources of data.

[etjeep]

It's your money not mine...so if your happy then that's all that matters....

But pls don't use JMHO in place of facts.



Bill,
I apologize, its clear now you are not an Edel hater and I realize you were not saying it was a POS. I think its human nature for some if they can’t move past the cost, just knock the **** out of something on the internet to somehow compensate. And yes, its my money to play, and I am moving in the direction of happiness, albeit slowly.

When there is real comparable data that proves the MPFI delivers significantly better MPG and HP/torque given the same parameters then maybe you can convince that the ROI-return on investment is justified.
And any pressurized fuel system would work equally well for off road only use..whether it's TBI or MPFI or even propane. So I really don't see the validity in your statement. How can MPFI be better off road then TBI?

That said the systems need to be comparable.
You can't say my Burb with TBI was junk but my jeep with MPFI is great.
Those are all subjective remarks.


Lets get one thing straight so we can move on, I said TBI was better off road than a carborator, not that MPFI was better off road than TBI. In fact, I have always said junkyard TBI is a good value and will work well for off road. I was never knocking GM TBI. For me personally, if I am going to put the time in to upgrade, its not going to be an older style GM TBI system that I personally was not enamoured with in the first place.

There are compromises in everything we do. I almost went the Holley Projection route about five years ago, but changed my mind when I found out Edel was developing their MPFI setup specifically for AMC motors. When I find a big company like Edelbrock putting their name behind a product and breathing new life into an old AMC product I am more inclined to vote for approval with my $ and I don’t begrudge them making a few dollars in the process. Like any new product, the cost will come down as more units are sold. If you base your decisions on ROI, you’ll probly have to wait a while for all the professional testers like CC-magazine or someone to publish their data. If you are like me, I don’t mind embracing newer technology for my toys. If I have to put my engineers hat on and base every decision off of ROI then its time to sell the Wag and get out of the game.

Also, my original response was to answer a guys question on the forum and let him know what I did, not to convince anyone to buy a certain product. Here are just a few of the key points that went into my decision:1) Junkyard TBI, ~$500 or less if you are a good scrounge. 2.) Aftermarket TBI (Howell, Holley Projection) ~$500 to ~$1500 new or used (when I was looking) (HPJ is now $1000 at Summit, but does not include intake manifold or HEI distributor and you need a laptop). 3.) Edelbrock MPFI $2500 (but it includes intake, Hall effect electronic dizzy, calibration module). So when you back out the extra items you get with an Edel system the cost differences are not that bad. Is there going to be a scrounge who can find all the right stuff for next to nothing….sure….but I don’t have that kinda luck so I don’t bank on it. Am I rich, no way, I am just years beyond the “how cheap can I make my junk” stage in my life.

As I pointed out before..MPFI was designed for increased idle emissions so the car companys could pass the new requirements.
So at idle it is more efficient.
As a result..your in town MPG may increase slightly.

As for power....if you compare 2 systems of the same size on the same motor how much increase in power do you really think you will see from a dry manifold vs a wet manifold?
1 hp....5hp?

Should we also add in the factors that if the heads were not originally designed for the MPFI and the angle of the spray pattern entering the manifold before it flows into the head are very important to the overall efficiency of the system.
There have been some conversions to MPFI that have actually netted less HP.

But just to clear the air of your misconceptions...I actually prefer the MPFI system over the TBI, but it has nothing at all to do with performance or MPG. If MPFI actually did make that much difference then I would have already converted.

The reason I like them better is the "Bling" is better.
But most of us know that "chrome don't get you home" from the trail.

That's why I have not converted to MPFI,

But I am working on a dual fuel TBI/MPPI set up.
That's TBI on top and multiport propane injection on the manifold.

Or I may go the other way????

But then again...I may just go diesel with propane injection!!!

So please provide all the "factual" comparison data you have. I and others I would think, looking to make changes would love to have additional resources of data.

Bill, All these shortcomings of the Edel bolt-on MPFI” system are probably true. I just realize this is a bolt-on, not a ground up engine design with maximum efficinecy. Like I said a Crank Position Sensor will give you better performance in the FI arena. I would like to do a diesel project in the future too.

[will e]

One advantage to a MPFI over TBI (and I have a TBI) is with TBI (as with a carb) you have to tune to the leanest runner in the intake. That means everyone else runs a little rich. This is not a problem with MPFI. Overall, everything being equal, the MPFI is better but it does cost more. Is the extra cost worth it? I think etjeep's compaison of 'what you get' when you buy new shows that the extra cost of the MPFI isn't that much greater. However, if you don't need an intake, distributor, etc, it is still an added cost.

I am kicking around the idea of upgrading to MPFI. I am going to give my Projection a little more time. The gas milage is good, the off roading is great, the drivability if fair (But I need to play with the tuning some more) the performance is fair (it is only a two barral version). I paid just 400 for it used off of ebay so it was a good deal. I could sell it pretty easy, sell my aluminum intake, probably sell my slightly used ZACK HEI and make up a chunck of the cost of the MPFI setup. My big hurtle is the emissions folks here in AZ. Must have smog pump, egr, bowl vent and cat. I could keep the cat but the rest just wouldn't work. Too bad the rules are set up in such a way that I am not able to put on a something that really wold help clean the air....

[etjeep]

Will e,
That sucks about the AZ emissions. I've been having the safety inspections only done for a few years. I think after 30 yrs, you don't have to inspect at all in NC. So thats one more year for my '78.

So I you're running open loop then with no O2 sensor since you still have an air pump?

[TPICherokee]

Some of these responses make me laugh.

We are in phase one of testing a 'real world' MPFI on a Grand Wagoneer for fuel mileage and power.

I know Bill will jump on my case and I don't really care what he has to say because like I have said before, we are doing a real world comparison. We are taking a 100k GW, we tuned it up, it recently had a new carb put on and professionally adjusted by the carb company and we are taking fuel mileage results for 1-2 months and then we bolt on the Edelbrock EFI system. We are not doing any other mods - just the EFI. We will not be tuning it on a dyno (yet), just out of the box performance and fuel mileage results.

After those results are taken and tallied, we will have the EFI tweaked and tuned for max performance and fuel mileage (we will try to find that happy medium) and post those results also.

So we will have stock rear wheel HP and torque numbers along with fuel mileage for this particular GW.

Then, bolt on the MPFI kit, show the same numbers with no tuning whatsoever, just out of the box like most people will be able to do.

Then, we will have it dyno tuned and see how much better or worse the numbers get.

This should be done in a month or two. Thanks.

[will e]

Will e,
That sucks about the AZ emissions. I've been having the safety inspections only done for a few years. I think after 30 yrs, you don't have to inspect at all in NC. So thats one more year for my '78.

So I you're running open loop then with no O2 sensor since you still have an air pump?

No, here is the weird part, I get better gas milage if I have the O2 pump running and in closed loop operation.

[will e]

Looking forward to those real world results. Just a thought, make sure the gas blend doesn't change during your tests. Here in PHX they change the gas twice a year.

[TPICherokee]

Looking forward to those real world results. Just a thought, make sure the gas blend doesn't change during your tests. Here in PHX they change the gas twice a year.

Good thought, I just looked into this and we will be doing this test on the same 'summer' blend of fuel around here. Thanks!

[DieselSJ]

Will - talk to the emissions folks. Even the smog nazi's in Kali could be convinced that EFI was better than a carb. My dealings with them on the DieselWag have proven to me that they are not the sharpest bunch of people. You could probably install a TBI system and cover it with an air cleaner and they would never know. The only thing they questioned on mine was the charcoal canister.

Bill - depends on the EFI system as to whether or not it will alter timing based on altitude. The Edelbrock system and GM based systems will not, but MegaSquirt will. MS will allow you to run a second MAP sensor to read outside air pressure and you can alter spark and fuel based on air density readings. Cool stuff.

Everyone - I think we need to start a poll on the results of the Edelbrock system. Based on the Victor manifold that is the base of the system, I think the system will gain high-rpm HP while losing torque below 3K rpm.

[Bill USN-1]

I know Bill will jump on my case
?
Why would I?
I applaud you for trying to do some real world testing.
I tried to get mine done but simply ran out of time before Uncle Sam made me move again.

and I don't really care what he has to say because like I have said before, we are doing a real world comparison.
That's a little harsh and uncalled for.

I guess that's where we are different..I do care what inputs others have. I just like to know what is fact and what is just being repeated as hearsay.

I have no agenda, I have no sponsors, I have no business to support or employees to pay. So what I put in my responses is just from me.
I have a job paid by the government and just play with FI in my spare time.
If anyone ever thinks that any thing I say is not accurate, then they can post their data or facts and I will learn just like everyone else.
I have no problem admitting being proven wrong.

I never claimed to be an "expert" or a "guru". I learn something every time I tune a system.

But, I guess I could file my name as a bussiness to try to give me more credibility on the internet!! :)

How's this...

"USN-1 Fuel injection"

[TPICherokee]

That's a little harsh and uncalled for.



That came out harsher that I meant it to sound, i apologize for that. On another post where I mentioned that we were doing this you came back and said:

If a company is going to do a comparison...I would like to see the results and the real test data points.

Every system would need to be baselined with the same timing curve and AFR's.
Meaning the carb and distr would need to be tuned on the dyno before the swap to an EFI system. Just like each EFI system has to be tuned to the engine.


You can't take a stock truck off the steet and throw it on a dyno and use it as a baseline.



So this is why I figured you would tell us that our test is insufficient and not accurate again...

[coiler]

Well not to start anything but when I decided to go for mpfi I did a cost comparisson and the difference was around 300-500 from howells and junkyard tbi. That was because I needed new intake and dizzy. Got the parts and I will begin install this weekend.

[will e]

Well not to start anything but when I decided to go for mpfi I did a cost comparisson and the difference was around 300-500 from howells and junkyard tbi. That was because I needed new intake and dizzy. Got the parts and I will begin install this weekend.

You are not starting anything. I think the misunderstandings have been smoothed over.

I think a Junkyard TBI could be done real cheap but often times that is made up with lots of tinkering and frustration.

Keep us posted on the MPFI install. I am very interested in how it goes. I was looking at the ordering info, did you have to give them your cam specs? I don't know mine....