PDA

View Full Version : What causes oil to get dirty real fast?


KYJ10
03-15-2003, 10:25 AM
My compression is great, so I know my rings are in good shape. I can change oil in my car and drive 3000 miles, and it still comes oil sorta brown. My 360 turns jet black after only 500 miles? Thanks, Dennis

andy d
03-15-2003, 10:30 AM
PO prolly didnt change it as well as he should have. is oil thin and gassy? that could be from running rich.

Don S
03-15-2003, 11:03 AM
..
KYJ10...
… Modern quality engine oils (even including Pennzoil) have a lot of chemicals and cleaners added to them and required by the auto manufactures. These additives are designed to keep the ‘bad particles’ in suspension. The additive does wear out. Some engines have hot spots (is your exhaust heat riser working correctly?) and/or can in more moisture when cooling off than others.

… At certain times an over rich fuel condition will cause gasoline to soften carbon and drain the black crud into the crankcase. Toyota even recently designed an engine with a ‘sludge’ problem and is having to extend the warranties.
When the new oil is put in the cleaning agents start to attack the cooked or sludge oil and this will make the oil look bad.

... Total solids are solids and semi-solid particulates contained in the oil sample. They are generally excessive oxidation resins, and/or combustion by-products (carbon).
... Typical sources of oxidation resins are high operating temperatures and/or extended oil drain intervals. Blow-by products can be caused by poor mechanical efficiency. Items such as incorrect injector and ignition valve timing, air to fuel ratio, or abnormal wear in piston ring and cylinder regions cause excessive blow-by.

... TAN (TAN = Total Acid Number - as in engine lubricants (acid))is the measurement of the weak acid formation in the oil. The higher the TAN the more acidic constituents are present in the oil. They can be formed by lower or high operation temperatures, extended oil drain intervals and poor time combustion.

Here’s a link to the gentle and successful way I have been removing Carbon in my FSJ for 18 years.
link> CARBON & FUEL ADDITIVES (http://groups.msn.com/JEEPTECH101/jeeptech.msnw)


Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..

Stolen76
03-15-2003, 11:19 AM
I clicked into this topic thinking I was going to get to spout off excessive knowledge... but I'm too late... what Don said !

Masato
03-15-2003, 11:24 AM
Must be caused by the overly rich fuel ratio, the oil flushes the carbon deposits.

I read somewhere you can flush all the used oil and clean the engine internals at oil change time by draining all the oil (leave the filter on), pouring 3qt kerosene/2qt engine oil into the engine and leave idling for 2 min (do not load or rev the motor), then flush again, change the oil filter and put new oil.

I even tried it on a Ford truck when the bypass on the oil pump stuck closed blowing up the oil filter. This trick fixed my oil pump and cleaned all the deposits from the top of the heads and the valve covers, so I guess it also cleaned all the engine internals.

The engine I tried this was an old ford with carb and a points dist. When idling with the kerosene in it, it smoked heavily, so I don't know what this will do to a smog motor.

xc_xtc
03-15-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Don S:
..

Here’s a link to the gentle and successful way I have been removing Carbon in my FSJ for 18 years.
link> CARBON & FUEL ADDITIVES (http://groups.msn.com/JEEPTECH101/jeeptech.msnw)


Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..In the english lang. this would be: (?) Put a high-grade two-stroke marine oil in my gas tank???? Um.... cave-man stupid.. need explaining...

KYJ10
03-15-2003, 01:42 PM
I don't have a heat riser. I have headers. Is this a bad thing to have happen?

FSJ Thing
03-15-2003, 02:00 PM
One time, I cleaned my engine out with dish soap. It worked great! I've had the same oil in it for the last six years and it still looks clean as a whistle! Of course I can't get it started, go figure. So tell me more about this twostoke oil in a four stroke engine, I'm with the cave man, this doesn't make sense. How much for how long, what kind, who do we blame if it blows the intake mainfold off..etc,etc..

Don S
03-15-2003, 02:24 PM
..
KYJ10...
… I don’t think an engine will operate as well when cool but you have proved as have I that you don’t have to have a heat riser
… The exhaust heat riser is to warm the manifold and carburetor and to assist the choke. These items aid in vaporizing the fuel and help prevent the engine from being cold ‘natured’. Gasoline is very sensitive to temperature for proper atomization.

In the english lang. this would be: (?) Put a high-grade two-stroke marine oil in my gas tank???? Um.... cave-man stupid.. need explaining YUP !! click on the link...It's written in english
... I’ve been using upper-lubes for over 50 years and will continue until they pry the bottle out of my cold dead hand…!!!
The idea described in the link below has worked wonders for me over the years. If you have short runs with a cold engine it may take a little longer to work. It doesn’t cost much…
FUEL TANK ADDITIVES
http://groups.msn.com/ATexasOklahomaJeepClub/ouraycotopic.msnw

http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=010756

Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..

KBWoodwgn
03-15-2003, 03:47 PM
So if there is already a lot of carbon and stuff built up is there a down side to cleaning it out?

Don S
03-15-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by KBWoodwgn:
So if there is already a lot of carbon and stuff built up is there a down side to cleaning it out?..
KBWoodwgn:...
...Carbon build-up or loose particles could be a cause that locks up a compression ring. The compression rings and oil rings have to expand and contract to operate correctly. I would want to clean it out.

... Harsh treatments for removing carbon could create a problem with the rings. I have used the sudden water and the sudden ATF treatments many times in the past with no harm but never again.
... Once I learned all the benefits of using 2 cycle Out Board oil as an upper-lub I just don’t let the carbon form.

Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..

Joe Guilbeau
03-15-2003, 08:26 PM
Give this a shot, go find some White Lithium Grease, in a spray can.

Take the air cleaner/filter off, and carefully spray around the throttle plates where air enters the carb or TBI, or whatever you've got.

Now go and drive it for about a week. Take the air cleaner off, and look at that fine coating of Lithium Grease, any suspended dirt and crap might help diagnose a dirty engine, garbage in... garbage out.

Some folks swear by K&N Air Filters, I properly cleaned and oiled mine, and now I sometimes swear at them. A cheap fix is the K&N Foam Dirt Guard to go on as a Pre-Filter.

Aint marketing hype wonderful?

Masato
03-16-2003, 01:42 AM
If you clean the combustion chamber there shouldn't be a problem, however if you're talking about removing the oil sludge deposits you could block an oil passage if not done right.

Don S
03-16-2003, 08:09 AM
..
Masato:... :cool: ...
... A blocked an oil passageway. Yes... you are correct it happened to me! But I figured out how to by-pass the blocked oil passageway to the rocker shaft on my AMC I-6. The by pass worked very well so I never took the engine apart to see what the cause was. I still have the engine.

… I have seen thick gooey sludge and baked-on hard sludge that can eventually flake off. The flaky stuff would stop up a oil filter or if in a large oil passageway that gets 'necked' down smaller it could be a real problem.
... I believe the flaky condition is caused by heat then loosened (peeling off) by changing brands or types of oil.

Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..

xc_xtc
03-16-2003, 02:33 PM
o.k... besides the fact that i'm automotivwly ignorant; why have i never heard of this before? and how much black smoke should i expect? ialso don'thave lots of $$$ so my tank is rarely full. can i do itwith small amounts of gas, or will it do something funny by sitting? .. oh yeah, aren't out gas tanks plastic? (85 Gwag) and if so, can't the oil damage it?

its not that i don't trust you, but its my first vehicle, and i really can't afford any more problems..like a new one.

sjp88grndwagon
03-16-2003, 11:09 PM
I have added the two stroke oil to my gas at every fill up like don suggested. Since then I have noticed better results form the carb and initial pic-up. I started with 8oz/tank (for two tanks) then 4oz (for two tanks), now I add 2oz per tank at every fill up

Don S
03-17-2003, 03:52 PM
..
xc_xtc:...
... Errrrrr…. Oil comes in plastic bottles and used to come in metal cans so we got the fuel tank covered either way. can i do it with small amounts of gas Yes... The maximum amout would be .8 oz per gallon. and half that amout if the truck is running great.
... In this world today and especially on the WWW it is a no fun game of who do you trust.

... I have never seen oil smoke out of any of my vehicles.

BTW... The color of the smoke can sometimes tell a mechanic what might be wrong will an engine.
A freshly started cold engine will be burning water condensation with a rich fuel mix and the will be light gray to white.
Over rich air/fuel mix will be black.
Oil smoke will be blue.
Water will look like steam because that’s what it is.
If you see a sudden big white cloud of smoke in your rear view mirror while driving down the highway... Get your wallet out. :D

Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..

Originally posted by xc_xtc:
o.k... besides the fact that i'm automotivwly ignorant; why have i never heard of this before? and how much black smoke should i expect? ialso don'thave lots of $$$ so my tank is rarely full. can i do itwith small amounts of gas, or will it do something funny by sitting? .. oh yeah, aren't out gas tanks plastic? (85 Gwag) and if so, can't the oil damage it?

its not that i don't trust you, but its my first vehicle, and i really can't afford any more problems..like a new one.

xc_xtc
03-18-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Don S:
..
If you see a sudden big white cloud of smoke in your rear view mirror while driving down the highway... Get your wallet out. :D

Good Luck ;) and CUL.. Don S..
.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Good thing i sold my wallet for gas $$.